Does the SCOTUS decision in the New Haven firefighters' case affect race relations:

I think this finally shows that we've reached a point where merit equals advancement, and that anyone, regardless of skin color, can advance in this society. I know that a lot of us have been passed over for many years for many things, but we know we can succeed as a people. We have roll models (and not just athletes and entertainers) that we can point to and say "YES WE CAN!!!" It takes a little failure (with the firefighters test) to eventually breed success.

I think this only goes to show that hand-written or computer-generated test can give you many varied results and that there are many factors involved in how well or poor one does on these test. To add fuel to the fire of "test validity" in this or any other aspect of society, was not a good choice on the part of SCOTUS. I think this will just create more and more lawsuits and bring about more and more division.

i never met a black woman who was an affirmative action recipient that was under qualified for the school or job she applied to or for--and the so called meritocrisy contestants that don't get in because some brown or black person did, do not acknowlege that according to the "objective criteria" of said institutions and organizations these women already met all the criteria for entering the hallowed halls of many institutions, but they weren't born with white weenies and went unconcidered until affirmative action made an appearance, and Title VII changed the laws, or Title IX changed the incentives and funding. until every one can freely admit that there is a history of systematic discrimination based on prejudice, they will be doomed to continue to repeat it. in addition if a third generation firefighter of non-brown origin is trully interested in helping humanity and does not feel any sense of entitlement then he or she is trully noble but it would be just as easy for multi-generational civil servants to join the police departments, sheriff departments, US Coast Guard, Navy, Marines, Army, or Airforce while still avoiding the appearance of nepotism, yet fulfilling civic duties and helping one's community.

Reba,
That's quite a run-on sentence you have there to start your spiel.

First of all, a black woman benefiting from Affirmative Action would by definition be under-qualified for the job. That's what AA does is give jobs to minorities who are normally under-qualified to give them a foothold in a particular occupational field. Thus, a black woman in the minority might be accepted to a university with lower test marks than a white woman in the majority because of the university's desire to expand racial diversity.

I don't know what the heck you're bringing "white weenies" into the comment. It sounds like you're just a bit bitter about something. Also, what does "non-brown orgin" mean?? My guess is that you are completely race-focused and can't see beyond it. That to me is the worst kind of racism.

God Bless You.

5130TR

if you have something intelligent to say then say it, don't start with a cheap shot. Belittling others for grammar or spelling makes you appear ignorant. This is not English class.

Just a little constructive criticism, not a cheap shot. I'm lost as to how that makes me ignorant; slightly rude maybe, but not ignorant. I'm just trying wade through the emotion of Reba's post and get to the logic. When discussing court decisions, emotions should never trump logic. Am I right or am I right??

How is making a rude statement not a cheap shot??? Are you a teacher??? Is this your classroom??? Starting out that way only reduces the entire statement. The court decision was clearly based on emotion and logic never entered into it.

The decision says that the city of New Haven must do what they said they would do which is to promote those that passed the test. The emotion comes in because the right people didn't pass the test, and the city was afraid (emotion) that people would get mad (more emotion) and sue.

BTW, I am not a teacher. But that is no excuse for putting up with poor grammer and unintelligible sentence structure. In order to complete reasonable arguments and intelligent thought, it is best to do it in a logical and orderly way. Otherwise you come off as a uneducated loudmouth with no credibility.

The decision was based on emotion.. the fear of the end of white privilege! Enjoy it while it last!

Belittling people reduces your comment and robs you of credibility!

Keeping your word on who is promoted after succeeding on a test has nothing to do with white privilege. Success is not a privilege, my dear. It is something that is earned. If you keep expecting it to be handed to you, you will continue to be a failure in life. What makes you think I am white in the first place??

Also, I think you meant to type "enjoy it while it lasts".

White privilege has everything to do with the decision. Especially when the success you speak of was not legitimately earned. Maintaining the same test for generations puts first generation fire fighters at a distinct disadvantage. A disadvantage that I am sure that you choose to ignore. Oh and maybe I was wrong in assuming that you were white. But if in fact you are not that makes your position all the more deplorable...

Thanks for adding the quotes! I don't know how I made it to 45 without you...

"Maintaining the same test for generations puts first generation fire fighters at a distinct disadvantage."
If first generation test-takers are at a disadvantage, do you think we should have different tests for firefighters based whether their parents were firefighters or not?? Maybe we should have a different test depending on if your brother, or your cousin or your uncle or your best friend or your best friend's uncle's dog was a firefighter. Do you see how your complaining would cause an incredible nightmare in preparing tests for people to take. It is much more simple and fairer to have everyone take the same test. Agree??

We often see multi-generations in the same field because it is an environment that they grow up in. You might see multiple generations of doctors, pilots, police officers, teachers or welfare recipients because people gravitate toward what they know growing up.

You saying that candidates who take and pass a test are not legitimate because they may or may not have had a parent in that position is ridiculous and rather whiney.

I knew the legitimacy of my comments would pass over your head like a flock of birds. Just because you fail to grasp them makes them no less legit. So being able to duplicate a test and pass the answers down from generation to generation does not spell advantage. Why am I not surprised that you would make such a remark. Oh and to call it whinny is just laughable!!!

Oh and english teacher there is no "e" in whinny

I didn't realize that you thought the same test was being used over and over for several generations. LOL!! Do you really think the city of New Haven has not updated their testing over the past 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years? And you think that firefighters are passing the test down to their children so that they can have the questions ahead of time?? Now you are just being paranoid. Do you know if there are any African-Americans involved in administering the firefighter's test in New Haven? My guess is yes. Are they racists too??

And to correct both of us, it's whiny (only 1 "n", no "e").

I think it's cute that you misspelled whiny when you tried to correct my misspelling.

That's exactly what I am saying the test has not changed significantly enough in years to correct for that advantage. What do people administering the test have to do with anything???

I guess I typed to fast and did not catch the error! anyway my point was even you are not perfect! get off the high horse!

Have you ever seen a copy of the test, or do you know how the test is administered? I have no idea and I bet you have no idea either. You are making assumptions on why certain people passed and certain people didn't. You're also assuming that everyone who passed was a second or third generation firefighter, but you really have no idea. Do you?

You're just assuming since no African Americans passed, it must be institutionally racist, but you don't really know. Do you??

I could ask you the same thing, if you've not seen the test how do you know its fair??? Can you prove what I'm saying is untrue! Or did you just jump on the band wagon because the decision sounded good to you?!

Of course institutionalized racism is just a figment of my imagination hun! We live in a post racial society in 2009! Yeah right!!! Oh yeah I forgot the only racism that exist now is reverse racism against the white man!

Institutional racism became a term when the race-baiters couldn't find anything they could put their finger on. It is a joke, just like Mark Thompson. He can't go three minutes without mentioning his race or someone else's race or religion. He looks so hard to find racism in everything because if he admitted it's not that bad out there, he'd be out of a job. His schtick is to be the victim in life. Quit playing the race victim on things like the firefighter's test. Have some dignity. I've said that I've never seen the test. I am giving credit to those that administer the test, and I'm giving credit to those who took the test that it was all done above-board. There has been no accusations of cheating or favoritism until you started throwing your feeble excuses around. I'm assuming that no one had the answers ahead of time and that the test-takers studied hard to pass. Being a lieutenant or captain in a fire brigade is a big responsibility. Those types of promotions shouldn't be handed out because we feel sorry for someone. They should be passed out to people who earned them. Grow up and act like the 45-year old that you are.

The whole country was found on deceit, theft and murder. So now because you say so I am to believe its all gone. Yeah post racial society my a_s! Even you deep down don't believe that stupidity! Like I said before enjoy it while it last! Mark Thompson speaks truth to power and your little immature a_s can't handle it!!!! Its you that need to grow up!!!!

Oh in anticipation of your response, telling me to leave if I don't like it. I say make me fool!!!

WOW!! Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Now we're talking about deceit, theft and murder. I thought we were talking about a firefighter's test. You've stored up a lot of anger in your 45 years.

And I would never tell anyone to leave this country because they think so poorly of it. I just think you need to take a deep breath and relax. This is the greatest country on earth and the greatest country in the history of earth. One just can't sit around and wait for good things to happen to them. They need to be pro-active and make them happen.

I'm sure you are a good person, but you can't go around pointing fingers at other people because of some imagined discrimination. We all make our own beds that we sleep in. You are in charge of yourself. With the exclusion of disabilities or other health issues, there is no reason that you can't get your tail out of that chair and go out and better yourself. Again, don't be the victim.

Look at the people in our country that didn't listen to the victimhood line: Barak Obama, Oprah, Bill Cosby, Michael Jackson, OJ...some of the most famous and respected (except for maybe Michael and OJ) people in the world. Did they deceive, lie and murder to get where they are?? Well maybe OJ did, but none of the other ones did.

This country is full of opportunity. Just take advantage.

I guess that's some of that post racial cuteness! We were talking about institutionalized racism. When I speak of this country being founded on deceit, theft and murder everyone know what I mean. More of that truth that you can't handle. Well I've got 45yr of it stored up to ram down your throat if necessary. If It weren't for systemic racism there would be 10's of thousands of Oprah's as well as the others you mentioned. Like I said before... enjoy it!

Where does all the bitterness and rage come from, my dear?? Oprah's great and everything, but I myself would rather have 10's of thousands of Halle Barry's myself. know what I'm sayin'.

Just chill out dear. You don't need to be rammin' things down people's throats. We're all friends, right?

Maybe you're right, OTR. Sometimes I get too worked up and threaten people. Sorry about the "jammin' it down your throat" comment. You are really a good man, and I have learned a lot by conversing with you. Thanks for making me realize that if you just try in life, things will happen for you. I think having Obama in office is just making me edgy. He seems to want to give everything away without any regard to paying for it. I mean, what the h*ll is up with this cap and trade nonsense, and I can't figure out who is paying for this health care "solution" that he is proposing. It's all a big joke to me. Plus, you're right. If the African American firefighters can't pass some lousy test, then they deserve to wait it out until next year.

Much love, Gwen.

I don't know who wrote that last comment because I did not. The truth is OTR513 you were wrong to try and take a cheap shot at another. I believe in standing strong behind what I say that is what a real woman does! I suggest you try it!

The fact that someone would take the cowardly way out and pretend to be me is laughable!!!

But I am still sorry. Sometimes I just don't know what the heck I'm talking about. I'm shutting that Mark Thompson off too. He's confusing my brain up.

Gwen, Apology accepted. Your last few emails really give me hope that you finally understand that life is full of challenges and that each of us needs to stand up to them. Keep up the good work.

Funny! You deserve no apology and you will not get one! Coward!!!!

I have been watching this conversation between Gwen and OTR for a few days now. I am really glad to see that Gwen has come around. While she had a few spastic answers, flipping from firefighter's tests to institutional racism to liars, cheaters, murderers and deceivers to finally apologizing for her rants, OTR stuck to his point and really made sense. I'm glad that it finally broke through Gwen's defenses and caused her to see the light.

I mostly listen to Lynn Samuels, but I wanted to check out this poll because the question was so ridiculus. The Ricci decision had nothing to do with race, so how could it affect race relations? Who thought up that question - a third grader?

I don't know who you are Gwen, but Gwendolyn already apologized. Nice try though. I'm out!!

Due to the lack of intellectual content in your responses, I figured you were a little kid. Now I know for sure! Well you need to stay off daddy computer!!!

Gwen and Gwendolyn are one in the same neither of which apologized to you!!! You coward!!!

Marty.... I think it was OTR that apologized to himself it sure wasn't me!

I don't see where OTR apologized to himself. Now, I am as confused as you and Gwen are. Anyway, I'm glad that we are all in agreement. Peace out!!

Marty... OTR apologized using my name.. like a little punk coward! Then he ran away! Oh I guess you didn't know Gwen was short for Gwendolyn. We are one in the same!!!The confusion is your own!!!

Then were you trying to confuse OTR by signing on with a different name?? There could have been a Gwen that was reading this along with a Gwendolyn. Why did you do that? Peace and Love.

Marty..... I signed on using Gwen after OTR used my name to apologize to himself! If you have been reading our comments for days like you claim, it makes no sense that I would say that. He just took the punk way out and then ran away!!! There is no defending that!!!!

Maybe he had to go potty or something. Sometimes when I'm typing all day, drinking Starbucks, smoking cigarettes and downing a couple of Wendy's Bacon-ators with cheese for lunch, I get all backed up until all of a sudden...WHAM...if I don't leave right then, I'll be spray-painting a disgusting trail of dookie all the way down my hallway to the bathroom. It ain't pretty. I'm guessing that's what happened to OTR. He's probably lying in a pile of his own filth trying to make it back to the computer.

I'm really sad about the way that this has all gone downhill. First Gwendolyn threatened to ram something down my throat, then Gwen called me a coward. Then, Gwendolyn called me a punk and a coward. Then, Marty suggested that I was defecating myself in my apartment hallway.

All I was suggesting was that the New Haven firefighters deserved their promised promotions if they passed the city's test. Well, I guess this is where speaking your mind gets you. Good-bye.

It was you taking a cheap shot at another that made me respond to you... Your statements should be strong enough to stand on their own merits. If they are cheap shots are never necessary!

I guess Marty's just another 5 yr old playing on his daddy's computer!

I guess Gwen, Marty and Gwendolyn are all gone. Too bad they can't hang with great minds like mine.

Guess again! Great mind! that's funny!!!

Some of what I have read on this little thread confirms what I have suspected for a long time. You just can not disagree with a liberal. For a group of people that purports to be "open-minded," liberals seem to be the most close-minded people I've ever encountered. If you do disagree with them on a given issue, almost all of them will resort to an ad hominem attack rather than debate the issue. As for the Supreme Court decision in the New Haven firefighters' case, the Court got it right, in my opinion. Competition based on the merit of applicants brings out the best in all those concerned and that will benefit society in general.

D.W. I feel the same about conservatives, libertarians and right wing neocons! The fact is the court made the wrong decision as well it was expected to do with bush's stacking. Sure you are entitled to your opinion but it has no more weight than mine.

I think D.W.'s opinion carries more weight because it is based on logic while Gwendolyn's (Gwen's) is based on pure emotion.