As a beagle field trialer myself it is a sport and we do all the right things to make sure the animals inside the pen have food and places to hide and are more safe inside the pen than outside away from all of the predators such as house cats foxes etc. These people don't have a clue what goes on and what animal cruelty is focus on dog fighting and the ones that starve animals thats animal cruelty. We should get to keep our right come on out to one and get out from behind your desk and see what really goes on.
I've been out from behind my desk and seen what goes on. How exactly is this a sport? It's cruel and unnecessary. I know what goes on and I feel strongly that it's deplorable. How kind of you to give them food and a place to hide after you've trapped them and placed them against there will in this pen so you and your friends can watch them get pulled apart by your dogs. Penned hunting is already illegal, this is just a different version of that. Get a clue NC! Be informed!
I have been an avid coon hunter my entire adult life. I have attended, on numerous occasions fox dog trials in enclosures, and on the outside. I must say that every possible attempt is made by the hunters not to harm the game. Those of us that enjoy chasing game with dogs do it first and foremost for the love of the dogs and the sound of the chase, not the kill. People who are not informed should try and become so before acting as if they are authorities on a subject. I feel that the hunters should be left alone, not everyone lives in a town and plays golf for entertainment.
I have been fox hunting for 7 years and have seen hunters gather for fundraiser raising over 5000 dollars in one day. I have seen a fundraiser raise enough money to put a roof on a church in one day .This is a sport where every one wants to help each other . Now lets take a look at how fox hunting helps the economy plus it a way to keep kids out of trouble AND STAY OFF OF DRUGS !!!! first you have to have a truck dog box mine was 1200. A ATV that was 7000 that money that stayed in NC if i go some where to enjoy watching my hounds, I get a hotel at 50 a night going out to eat when I am away from home ,I know one restaurant that makes thousands more when hunters are their . Dog food i spend 800 every 3 months vet bill God only knows how much . dog kennels 2000 dog houses 1500 .Tracking equipment the box is 800 to 1000 and then 150 per collar ALL this money stayed in North Carolina this is how fox hunting helps North Carolina . I work as a Sheriff deputy where i never know if I will make it home or not it would be real nice to see people work this hard to stop child molester or help find dead beat dads and stop trying to hurt people who try to help others. GOD BLESS
It is time to save jobs not lose them
PS I HAVE NEVER SEEN HUSHA OR PETA GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO HELP A FAMILY IN NEED
This is a bloodsport that must be stopped. How people can enjoy watching animals being torn apart by dogs is beyond me. This is dog fighting at it's worse. They put Michael Vick in jail for doing the same thing with dogs. Using coyotes and foxes for the dogs to fight is just an attempt to circumvent the dog fighting laws that are in place in most states. For those who suggest this is tradition, I want to remind you that it wasn't too long ago that women belonged to their husbands after married. That was tradition. Used to be that women couldn't own property or have their own money. Women were not allowed to vote! That was tradition. Some traditions just have to go. The time has come to get rid of this tradition. Bloodsport should not be tolerated in our society.
What a bunch of ignorant hicks!
The very fact that this issue still even needs to be debated in the 21st century is beyond belief. How can ANY amount of money raised at the expense of an animal's life (mentioned as rationale by a hunter above) excuse such heartless cruelty? It is barbaric to harass an animal, ANY animal for entertainment, and by the way, animal abuse and child abuse ARE KNOWN TO BE CONNECTED! So before ignorantly condemning people who care about animals, do a little research! Most compassionate people who don't want to see wildlife, or domestic animals harmed or harassed unnecessarily, DO care about other people. In fact they care deeply! If you haven't seen an animal welfare organization go out of it's way to 'help a family in need', then you have NO IDEA how appreciative flood victims, and fire victims, etc, are for the kindhearted people who have saved the animals that many people would DIE for before leaving behind after Katrina, etc. It's ALL CONNECTED.
Please, STOP ABUSING ANIMALS, and start learing respect for the vulnerable!
? DO YOU EAT MEAT FISH DO YOU HAVE LEATHER SEATS IN YOU CAR DO YOU HAVE A LEATHER WALLET OR A LEATHER POCKET BOOK. OH WAIT I FORGOT THEY ALL COME FROM A STORE A COW NEVER DIED SO YOU COULD EAT AND HAVE LEATHER SEATS .
HEAR ANOTHER THING JUST LOOK AT ALL THE CATTLE COYOTES KILLED LAST YEAR THEY KILLED 1/3 MORE THAN DIED DUE TO NATURAL CAUSES .
AND HOW A BOUT THE 2 POOR MAN IN ARIZONA WHO GOT BIT BY THE BOB CAT.
Mrs. Atwood,
You stated that you have been out from behind your desk and seen what goes on. What pen have you been to? what field trial have you been to? After the animals are trapped, if they happen to get injured while being trapped(which doesnt usually happen) they are not realeased into the pen. they do get taken care of and healed, and rested for weeks before they are put into the fox pen. And after foxes and coyotes are put into the pen, the pen is shut down for weeks at a time, before any dogs are allowed to even run in there. every effort is made to stop the dogs from catching the foxes or coyotes. They have hideaways for them to escape that dogs cannot get into. And if one is caught, we get in there and pull the dogs off, and take care of the fox and heal it and it is NOT put back into the pen, until it is healthy. You are welcome to come to the pens and run with us, or come spectate a field trail and see what really goes on. If you ban penning it will hurt the dog feed industry, I can guarantee it, alot of dog supplies will suffer too. Vets will lose income, hotels, and so will restaurants. Field trailers come from all different states to run against each other, not just southern, and even houndsmen form canada. By the way, I'm 18 years old, and it is great event for families and kids, and keeps alot of kids out of trouble. Trust me.
The Man: Seems like your the ignorant one with that comment. Alot of these fieldtrailers aren't just backwoods rednecks. Alot live in the city, as do i. and like i stated above, it isnt just a southern thing. Your welcome to come to a field trail also, but you have to use your real name.
Thanks,
Byron Mynes
These radical hunters would like the world to believe coyotes and foxes enjoy being tormented, persecuted and massacred in these pens. The sheer panic these innocent wild creatures endure in the face of "sport" is despicable and barbaric. It's so typical of the hunters to proclaim themselves as society's good samaritans. This is one facade they use to hide their cowardness, extremist and supremist positions each time they kill, maim and orphaned untold wild creatures to pursue their "sport". These people represent a menace to our rights to peaceful living. "Tradition" is another ploy hunters use to push forward their agendas. As societies become more enlightened, the red-necked mentality is becoming a thing of the past--thank goodness!. Yes, let's remain conciously ignorant to continue human and non-human animal exploitation, abuse, neglect, torture and exterminations...after all it's tradition. Joe McClees, NC Sporting Dog Association lobbyist, stated "the practice is actually a humane way to hunt". There's NOTHING humane about subjecting unwilling victims to the savagery of being targets of agony, torture, mutilation and slaughter. Furthermore, there's NOTHING humane about practices that project and impose callous disregard for the ecological, environmental, biological, societal and cultural impacts the bloody "sport" of hunting creates. How can we ever achieve world peace when we exploit, torture and kill sentient beings to continue and expand the 'master and supreme' Cartesian dualism and totalitarian methods? We conquer, dominate and obliterate all we deem not deserving equal consideration. The human race is self-destructing.
Some people just lack compassion. It is very sad. I was shocked to hear of this barbaric ritual. Surely we can all work to develop more compassion and entertain ourselves in other ways.
Quite looking at the foxes/yotes and the hounds just a minute and think. Take one look at what it does for the economy and children who get involved. It does good. Those who want it banned have those good jobs that sit in a office making good money an worry about what others are doing and trying to stop it and ain't worried about those who lives depend on this. We don't bother no-one, keeps us YOUNG folks off the roads and drugs. Also this world is coming into some trouble and still theres people trying to make it worse. The more that you'll take from us the more it causes to happen on the streets. Stealing, Killing, Child Abuse, Drug Usage. Teens are gone get there enjoyment no matter what happens. Just hope you'll see that stealing, partying, drugs ain't want you'll advise them to do besides a little field trailing.
Many of these comments are from people who don't have a clue . They"re out shopping buyin leather purses and eating meat while they shop so there is no need arguing with them they've never probally step foot in the wild. So all you fellow penners you're wasting your breath, just keep on doing what you like and keep running hounds!
I just wish there were a way to post a video. I could show everyone what liars these guys are. Packs of dogs with numbers on them do tear the live bait apart in the running pens. Sometimes, the dogs even turn on each other. I have a quote from a man who's dog was torn apart by the other dogs. He talks about how much he loved his dog and didn't understand why the other dogs would do that. It was very sad. The trappers in IN were making big money selling coyotes to the southern running pens. We have
put a stop to that! There is a lot of illegal behavior that goes on in the pens. Yes, there may be hiding places, but, if there isn't enough excitment during the day, the hiding places are blocked so that the foxes and coyotes can't have access to them. Fox Atlanta did a very good expose on running pens and talked to a woman who's job it was to block the hiding places and to pick up the dead animals at the end of the day. This is "bloodsport". Please put a stop to this abuse of our wildlife.
Mrs. Lambert, don't call me or anyone else a liar, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I have never seen dogs turn on each other, NEVER. I'm running a couple of my dogs tonight. BRING your VIDEO CAMERA, and I'll get you that video, and I'll prove YOU wrong and show that YOU are the liar. I've never heard of anyone blocking the hiding places, and if that did happen; it shouldn't. but I can assure you that is probably the only one out of the 150 pens that did that. And the dogs are not released on the purpose of catching the animals, they are released and judged on which dog is the fastest. Very seldom do the foxes and coyotes getcaught. I put my e-mail up, cantact me If you are close to Jacksonville, NC you can come with me tonight, nothing bad happnes at these pens and there is nothing to hide. I will show that it is not whatt you think and you can stop believing and spreading propaganda bull.
Thanks,
Byron Mynes
I have lived in the woods and fox pens my life and love the sport more and more every day.I also have a five year old that would rather do nothing else but listen to his dogs run yea thats right his dogs.So now you want me to go home and tell him that want happen any more.Every time you pull up to a hunt every father has there kids with them having fun and enjoying the company and making new friends.What if my father would not have done this with me?Well lets see I could have been out running the streets,doing drugs,staying in trouble who knows and dear lord I dont want to find out.Also did any body think about what the feed stores and mom an pop stores are going to do when there are no dogs to feed well they just close down huh put more people on unemployment yeaa good idea.And if your so concerned about a fox or coyote and all this is made ilegal then what about the hounds were will they go mmm well lets see to the pound maybe what wiil happen there?They will be put to sleep,so I guess a fox is more important than mans best friend .So the next time you slide into your leather seat or that leather coat think about it again.I no let make a bill up to end every thing that every one else loves to do a crime.
First, let me say that the TV and news media need to understand that your poll will not be an accurate opinion of the people. See, people who work outside and were raised to live off the land don't sit behind desks and take time to send e-mails---it's not our thing! I've been hunting all my life and my family continues to hunt. I give money to land and animal preservation and I spend lots of money on my hunting hobbies. These bills are just a start with HSUS---they are a huge force because they have brainwashed good people to believe animals are more important than humans. This will backfire on those HSUS and ASPCA contributors if you continue to support them. Fox pens are not inhumane--these animals are treated very well---these pens are huge 900+acres. No animal is forced to run---they all can retreat at any time. It is their natural instinct to chase and be chased. Please do not support something you know nothing about. Beware - HSUS and ASPCA will take away your right to own animals as pets eventually!!! C.Riggs
Bryan.
Thank you for your offer, but I am in IN. I want to repeat that I do have photos and videos posted by dog runners that show what really happens. What they tell the public and what they tell each other is completly different. If it happens at even one pen, it paints the others with a black brush. This abuse of our wildlife must stop.
CeAnn
Ban Live Bait Dog Training
Penning is about keeping the dogs safe from harm, if this legislation passes the hunting will continue, but the dogs will have to run on open land. Running on open land will increase trespassing and cause valuable hunting dogs to venture into the road and get smashed.
Hunting in the open works for closer ranging dogs, like the bird dogs or coonhounds that point/tree...but for running hounds it is a recipe for disaster.
Hunting in the pen allows young dogs to be exposed to the desired game, which keeps them away from trash (deer); foxes, coyotes, and rabbits run from hounds in a circle until the pressure gets to much and they hole up to escape the dog...deer run a straight line away which puts dogs in danger. Pens are a great training tool.
Pens have properly designed escape locations, make no mistake, when the animal holes up in the wild the stump hole may not keep the dogs away, the escape locations in the pen are designed to keep the dogs away.
Remember it's the Wildlife Resources Commission, wildlife is considered a resource, a renewable resource. The hunting will continue, so why not have penning as a solution to trespassing and dogs being run over? Those that oppose penning but do not live in rurla areas would not be so quick to oppose it if a pack of hounds ran through their yard 2 or 3 times a week.
Last point, the bill was introduced by the politician from Wake County...how many pens in his county?????? Makes you wonder who he is listening to, I doubt he had complaints from citizens????? So whats his motivation?
I will stand up for the Ignorant Hicks, I don't know of many communities of people, That will come together and raise money for a person in need weather your black, white, hispanic, ect. like the foxhunting community will. We as hunters bring who knows how much of a stimulas package into a town when a benefit hunt is going on. Hunters from other states attend just to support, How many city slickers will travel just to donate money to someone, a church, a mission trip, cancer patient or just anyone in need, just to help. This sport helps keep our kids out of drugs , drinking and driving, ect and helps them to understand what true fellowship is all about.With out politics.
Mrs. Lambert,
It's Byron not Bryan. The offer is on the table. What fox pen have you been too? Like i stated before very seldom do the foxes and coyotes get caught.
Thanks,
Byron Mynes
First things first, if they ban hunting and running pens then what are you gonna do with all the gazillions of foxes and coyotes out roaming the street in YOUR town? next thing you know, mine and your children won't even be able to go outside to play, and you will be scared to even go and get your newspaper and your 6 figure paychecks due to foxes and coyotes with rabies running wild everywhere. Not to mention the infinite number of deer feeding out of your flower beds and running into your high price SUV. foxes and coyotes released into these pens are vaccinated prior to their release and are taken care of daily. they are in the same equal health as the hounds we run them with (fed, watered, de-wormed, etc.). furthermore, i'm sure the aniti's are doing SOMETHING behind their closed doors that i do not approve of, but you don't see me trying to tell you what is right and wrong. is this no longer a FREE COUNTRY?
The wildlife of the US is held in trust by the States' Natural Resources Director for all of the people of the state. Not just a few with vested interest. (Dog runners) The coyotes and foxes also belong to me and I don't want them torn apart by dogs for entertainment. This is a free country and that is why we can try to stop this "bloodsport."
all the negetavie ones that are against it probally just read about the bad things and what the media provides, they"ve never seen a trial with their very on eyes ,they just go on what others have said. once them bad people get their way and do away with penning its only a matter of time they will take away their poodles and cats and then we all will hear all of their crying.wait youll see! you think peta and hsus is on your side think again.
If this is a free country, keep your poodle at home and let us continue to hunt in the pen. this way your pet food will stay at 5 or 10 dollars a bag and not 50 or 75 dollars a bag. If ya'll you would look around there are plenty of foxes and coyotes free roaming,( they are not fed daily so they may need some fating up) claim a few of them as yours! You should see just how hard us hunters work to save any game that is cought by our hounds. WE try alot harder to save them than you slamming on brakes to miss a fox on the highway while your driving.
Brian
For one Ceann,The Natural resources issues permits for these hunts.If you have all these videos and stuff you say you have Then bring it out and prove your point.If not sit behind your desk and tend to your own business.Been to many feild trails everything is done that can be done to keep the game safe.If everyone of yall would worry about the crime rate and drug problems as much as yall do a family event the crime rate would not be so high.
let me ask you have you ever seen a member of peta help buy having a fund raises . DO not vote to stop a sport that just wants to help A human !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ceann scene you own the coyotes can i get you address to send the vet bill from where the coyote tore him up all most killing him .
CeAnn, If this is a free country then why cant we enjoy a sport that we love and care so much about.This is not a blood sport this a family sport. What if we as Hunters tryed to stop something you enjoyed.ALL and most of the news media has been one sided to fit there agenda.Live Bait Dog Training where did that come from and if you are from I.N. then really what business is this of yours dont you have more things to worry about. And what you said before you guys are TRYING to stop this. There are millions of fox hunters in this great free country we live in.And really it is a shame when there are people without jobs and no food to eat and the Goverment is woryed about things such as this.We all need to put small things aside and look at what is really wrong in this world.God Bless. Michael D. Prince.
Debbie
I have tried to figure out all day how to make it so that you can see some of the videos. I have tried copying the links, but am not sure they will work.
Download 1JfqB_s3pAo Download Wp9lR6A4_c0
Download 0MhNRwOtJNQ
Debbie, be sure you want to watch these. They are very graphic. The audio of the coyotes in pain as they are torn apart bothers me more than the actual photos. However, you asked me to produce my evidence. These aren't the only videos that I have.
HERE IS A NOVEL CONCEPT THAT ALL OF YOU PETA PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN, LET'S TALK FACE TO FACE DON'T ACT LIKE A SCARED LITTLE GIRL BY HIDING BEHIND THAT COMPUTER SCREEN. ALL YALL RABBIT FOOD EATING, HYBRID DRIVING, TREEHUGGERS DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT THIS SPORT MEANS TO ME AND THE REST OF THE FOXHUNTERS. SO IF YOU'RE NOT TOO SCARED TO SHOW YOUR FACE SEND ME AN EMAIL AND WE'LL TALK MAN TO MAN. IF YOU AREN'T MAN/WOMAN ENOUGH TO SAY WHAT YOU GOT TO SAY TO MY FACE THEN YOU NEED TO KEEP YOUR DAMN MOUTH SHUT AND YOUR FINGERS OFF THE KEYBOARD!!!!!!!!!! DTEVERETT@MY.WAKETECH.EDU..............NOW IS YOUR CHANCE TOFU EATERS, DON'T TALK ABOUT IT BE ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!
Debbie
Try this. Click on the link below.
http://coyoteinfo.typepad.com/
then when the site comes up, click on the first link that will be highlighted in blue and that link will be will be the same as the second link in my comment
Download 1JfqB_s3pAo
Those against penning or hunting are the same ones who abort innocent children and don't think twice about killing babies and they also gorge themselves eating domesticated penned animals such as cows, pigs, chickens, etc. They also complain when a tree gets cut down for any reason, liberal tree huggers is what I call them and they don't have a heart for human life but think they came from an animal, 'monkey that is. Leave us hunters alone and go shop at a mall or play golf or go make a baby and then kill it like you usually do. You liberals are sick minded people, you are like the pot calling the kettle black, you strain at a knat but swallow a camel.
Thanks for sharing this CeAnn. Click on the link below. http://coyoteinfo.typepad.com/ then when the site comes up, click on the first link that will be highlighted in blue. Anyone who can watch this horror unfold and actually enjoy it, as is evident by the enthusiasm of men's voices at the scene of this video, belongs in jail.
Where was that footage taken? Becouse I have lived in NC for thirty years and only seen that much snow a few times on the east coast. By the way if those hounds catch that many coyctes I would be winning hunts all the time with them, they must be fast...
You ladies can sit back and call us all the names you want. Tell yourself that this is a blood sport, and the POOR foxes are turn loose to be torn to shreds. But what it come down to is YOU dont know ,and are not willing to find out, the FACTS about the topic. You have NEVER seen a feild trail and Didnt even know Fox pens excised til this came out. So how can you tell some one what goes on inside one: ANSWER, you cant. So you show a video some SICKO took of a dog fighting a coyote. Not even close to what goes on in a FOX PEN. BUT thats all you got and again YOUR WRONG. Wanna Talk BLOOD SPORT: how about PRO Choice, WHATS TORN TO SHREDS in that one? But you dont sound off for that topic do you.YOU dont step in to save that one do you. All you care about is what effect YOU at YOUR convenience. FIND something else to rail on that you might know a lil something about. Whether its a BBQ plates or chasing a fox, animals are use in fund raisers, and I can promise , there are less foxes killed to raise money for our causes than pigs and chickens. BUT like the Fox PEN ,another topic you know very little about, Helping you fellow MAN. Its all about YOU, and YOUR beliefs? If you dont like it , then by all means , dont participate. STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW; talking on your cell fone, shopping, ect.
The abuse of the coyotes and foxes by dogs in the running pens is the same. No matter what state it is in. Brian, you and I are so different. You look at that video and just want to know where the video was taken. You don't say one word about what is happening to the coyote. No compassion, no empathy, allmost no feeling at all. I see an animal in terrible pain while men stand around and laugh at it and encourage the dogs to cause it as much pain as possible. We could never understand each other.
Jerry, I have been researching the running pens for two years. I know that some of the NC running pens were buying foxes and coyotes illegally from IN trappers who were also selling them illegally. This is a very dirty business who's dirty secret in now out of the bottle and can't be put back. It will stop. If not this year than later. Our society will not tolerate this abuse of our wildlife to continue.
I do have other interests. I have worked most of my life with children who have been sexually and physically abused. Abuse of children is usually perpetrated by the same kinds of people who abuse animals. Abuse of the elderly has also risen in our society. Abuse has to stop. No matter whether against animals or people who are the most vulnerable.
How did the human race ever make it this far without you bleeding heart idiots? Most of you have no idea what you are even commenting on.
Ceann,
you stated "The abuse of the coyotes and foxes by dogs in the running pens is the same." You are wrong. you will never see that happen in a pen. Very seldom do coyotes get cught in a pen, like i've stated numerous times. They're is hideaways for them to escape. And if one does happen to get caught, which is slim, but does happen some times; I CAN GUARANTEE you that everyone at the fox pen will be in there pulling the dogs off and getting that coyote out and taking care of and healed. I promise you that.
and like i've asked numersou times, "what fox pen have you been too?" you haven't answered, so I'm guessing you've never been, so you don't have a clue what happens there. you are going off heresay bull. Since you've never been I will offer it to you again, you are more than welcome to come with me anytime. You say you've been researching pens for 2 years, but you've never been to a pen. you can read all you want, but you never what happens until you are actually there. So you shouldn't open your mouth until you visit a pen.
So to conclude, Outside Coyote HUNTING(what was in those videos) is NOT the same as fieldtrailing in fox pens.
b.mynes@yahoo.com is my e-mail, if you want to talk one on one.
Thanks,
Byron
Ok CeANN, lets just stop driving on highways.Lets stop building houses. Lets stop everything we do in life ,because THAT KILLs wildlife.Foxes and coyote DO NOT live forever. If we were killing sooo many Animals, with a 150 fox pens in NC, dont you think they would be Extinct.Between the pens and the highways BUT,They are not, so someone is doing something to preserve them.And its not just NOW that this is happening. There are more now than ever. I am sick to think that a AZZ HOLE would do something like was on the video. NO ONE in the fox hunting community would stand for such things either. The fox hunters who ride the horses were all about the kill. I , and a lot of others, are all about the chase. I do not expect you to understand the WHY, but please respect my BELIEFS.AS I RESPEST YOURS. I commend the NCWRC for finding and catching anyone bring in game from another state. THAT is LAW, you just cant do that. I do not know of it ever happening, but, if you say it, it must be true.RIGHT? As far as the children and elderly you work with; looks like you would be on my side on asking" WHY are we worry with FOX PENS" , when there are pressing issue with both of those groups. OK,you dont like the PENNING issue, but the GOVERNMENT Waste? I dont get it. NOW if ' pennig' isnt stopped, what would you like to change about the sport. Please enlighten me. And you cant say "stop the killing" cause you havent been there and know the facts. AND That video doesnt cut it. CAUSE Thats not MY SPORT. you can Email me anytime jthomas501@yahoo.com
CeAnn, are you for or against abortion? Seriously, answer the question. If you don't support it, then I think you have ever right to be angry at what these hunters are doing. If you do support "a womans right to choose", then your nothing more than a hypocrite!! Plain and simple. Please prove me wrong on this.
I have been a running hounds in foxpens for over 10 years now. My uncle and I own a fox pen in southeast NC. In all the 10 plus years now that i have been in this great sport ive yet to understand why you people call it a bloodsport. In our pen we have fox and coyotes. We have names for each and every fox and coyote. We feed them everyday and they will come right up to our feet and eat. We care for our fox and coyotes everybit as much as we do our own hounds. Here is a story for you people that think the coyotes are in the pen against their will. A tree fell on our fence one night during a storm. The next morning we found the tree and got the fence fixed. My uncle and I were outside the pen and I seen a coyote out in the field outside of the foxpen. I said that all of our coyotes are named and i noticed that is was one of ours that got out during the night. I went up to our main gate and opened it wide open and walked away. In just a few seconds the coyote came running back in the pen just a fast as he could. We run hounds in our pen almost everynight of the week. So tell me, if it is so bad on the fox and coyotes why would he come back in the pen. The coyotes and fox are better off in the pen rather than being in the wild. We still have coyotes and fox in our pen that was first put in our pen more than 10 years ago. For us when we have to buy new fox and coyotes its not because of them being caught and killed. Its because of our fox and coyotes dying of old age. Dont sit here and try to tell people this is a bloodsport when its far from it. You have NO CLUE what fox pens do for everyone EVEN YOU!! STOP making all your accusations on things that you have read or whatever. If you or any of you SO CALLED animal rights people would do a little research you would leave our loved sport alone. If all you want to attacking someone for animal cruelty you better start with your so called allies such as PETA and HSUS. Everyone of you are hipicrits. I know alot of people that are in this sport and I know alot of pen owners. I have been to alot of the pens in NC and i have yet to see to so called shredding and tearing apart of the fox or coyotes. Think about it, why would we want to kill the fox or coyotes? They cost money!! So just like any normal person, we want to save money not waste it. We do everything in our god given power to keep our fox and coyotes safe, from dens and escape holes all through out the pens.
Fox and coyotes are considered a nuisance in US and if you succeed and stop penning you are going to see the fox and coyote population just EXPLODE!! and then your are gonna be sorry. First you will start seeing an outbreak of diseases of alot of wildlife. Second, you will start see alot of your cattle and animal farmers go out of business for your coyotes that YOU socalled saved killing all the cattle, chickens etc..... Third, when the population gets so huge and they start running out of food they are gonna make it to the citys and you guessed it watch out for little children outside playing. You want more reasons i will keep on if you want but im about to run out of space on this post.
It is just obsurd to think that we are doing harm to the fox and coyotes. THEY ARE BETTER OFF IN THE PENS!! and its better for EVERYONE else.
I have been going to the fox pens with my husband for a while and what worries me is, where are the people who are against penning are getting there information from. I can almost say it saved my marriage because we both enjoyed it and we get to spend more time together as a family (big family including the other friends at the fox pens). I have a three year old daughter that loves it, can't wait to hear the dogs and is not scard one bit at all. One of my friends has a three year old son that goes with her and her husband to the fox pens. For me to allow my child to go means there is NO ABUSE of the fox and coyote. I guess there are people with nothing to do and lives for the stupid drama. I wish you could see the pictures I have and see there is no harm.....nothing but love!!! I do not want to tell my daughter that we are not going to be able to go to the Fox pens anymore. Please do not let me have to break my daughters heart !!!!!! That will hurt me more than any thing!!!!!!
Humane Society of The United States (HSUS) and People for the Ethical treatment of Animals (PETA) do NOT support any local animal shelters.
This page is not about German Shepherds or any other dog. It is about how some charitable organizations are not charitable, but rather money-grabbers. This is how less-than-honest organizations are playing on your sympathies, in order to extract money for their hidden agendas.
Why do they succeed?
Animals lovers everywhere want to help those animals that are less fortunate than their own pets. In an attempt to help, most people will donate blindly to an association based solely on the sound of the name, or the fact that this organization has been around awhile.
We have all received those envelopes in the mail with the cute Christmas cards begging for you to support the charity by buying cards. Some of us also have received letters throughout the year showing starving and abused dogs and cats. Others receive images of rabbits with written text that says the photo depicts the result of animal testing - and won't you please help by sending money.
The two organizations that most often use these begging tactics are PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) and HSUS (Humane Society of the United States.)
Please do not be duped by these organizations. They are using YOUR money to further their hidden agendas. There is nothing good about them. Your money supports their self serving interests.
All Charities with annual revenues of $25, 000 or more must file form 990 with the federal government. This form details exactly what portion of contributions goes to help animals and how much goes to administrative costs.
It is better if a nonprofit group raises its own money or uses volunteers to raise that money. There are a lot of contracts out there where only 10 percent actually reaches the actual cause. Be aware that some charities list fundraising costs as "program services" in their reports - and that, obviously, does not directly aid animals.
For example, PETA supports Terrorism by donating your money to groups know as The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and the Earth Liberation Front (ELF). Both of these groups are responsible for terrorist acts against fellow Americans for various reasons that, simply put, do not agree with the agendas of the ALF and ELF. They raid farms, releasing all of the animals, and they bomb research laboratories.
PETA made a sizable donation last year to the North American Earth Liberation Front, which claimed it was responsible for the 1998 fire bombing of a Vail Ski Resort and hundreds of other crimes.
The violent activist group known as "Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty" (SHAC) is a special-interest subset of an FBI-certified "terrorist group" called the Animal Liberation Front (ALF). SHAC is singularly dedicated to destroying the medical research company that uses laboratory animals in its search for the cures for breast cancer and Parkinson's Disease.
And so it goes . . .
PETA donates YOUR MONEY to ALF, and ALF sponsors SHAC - a terrorist group. And you thought that you were saving rabbits from being tested with shaving cream. Hats off to PETA for their successful job of completely *snowing* the general public.
In 2004, PETA made the following Fiscal Report
Assets: $6.4 million
Income: $13.9 million
PETA files an IRS Form 990 or 990-EZ. To see PETA'S income tax return click on the link below
http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2005/521/218/2005-521218336-02015e44-9.pdf
To read about their acts of terrorism, please click the following link www.consumerfreedom.com and signup for the newsletter.
The HSUS (Humane Society of the United States) says it works for the protection of animals. The group has enough money to spay and neuter almost all of the strays in the USA and yet they support NO LOCAL SHELTERS.
This organization uses your money to support anti-breeder laws. HSUS funds legislation that woul
The HSUS (Humane Society of the United States) says it works for the protection of animals. The group has enough money to spay and neuter almost all of the strays in the USA and yet they support NO LOCAL SHELTERS.
This organization uses your money to support anti-breeder laws. HSUS funds legislation that would put a stop to breeders being able to breed. HSUS officials say they are against puppy and kitten mills, but the legislation they propose across the country does NOT exclude small, private breeders. It lumps everyone into the same legislative category.
In 2004, according to its 990 and 990EZ tax return the HSUS reported:
Assets: $111 million
Here is the link to that income tax return: http://documents.guidestar.org/2001/530/225/2001-530225390-1-9.pdf
Somehow, we don't think that they need our money. The HSUS relies on your misunderstanding to keep their bank accounts full.
Research conducted by the Center for Consumer Freedom (www.consumerfreedom.com) has confirmed that since at least 1998, the HSUS has been funding an Internet service used by the violent criminals of the Animal Liberation Front (ALF).
HSUS has been very publicly criticized for hiring ALF-affiliated criminal JP Goodwin in 2001.
Check out WASTE.org, which hosts the ALF “Frontline” mailing list - the vehicle for arsonists and other criminals to announce their animal-rights' crimes.
Americans donated nearly $200 billion to philanthropic causes in 2001. PLEASE protect yourself and make you dollars go further to worthwhile charities.
(1) Don't give money to any charity that you don't know
(2) Make sure that the organization spends at least 70 percent of its budget on program services. The best do even better.
(3) Investigate the charity's Board of Directors for possible conflict of interests.
(4) Make sure that the charity is registered with the IRS as a public Charity otherwise your donations are NOT tax deductible.
(5) Do NOT donate solely on the basis of the charity's name. Some adopt names very similar to well known charitable organizations.
(6) Do your homework. Planned giving is much more effective than last minute responses.
Your local no-kill shelters would be a very good place to donate your hard-earned money. You can visit and delegate in what areas of operation you would like your donation to be spent. Remember PETA and the HSUS do NOTHING to help your local shelter!
This is the best charity monitoring group that can provide you with almost everything you need to know before giving a donation: GuideStar. At this site you'll find reports of charitable organizations, including a database of more than 850,000 IRS recognized nonprofit organizations. Remember, do your homework and make your donation count.
I have a question about something that I have been hearing. I don't know anything about this. It is just rumor that is filtering in to me. The rumor is that the running pens are also used for something called "bear baiting" or sometimes called "bear baying." This is where a bear is tied to a tree or stake by one leg and the hounds are set on it. Is this true? Does it happen in NC? Is this just a rumor or does it happen?
Dear Fatty Matty,
Rape is wrong, even if someone who is in the habit of murdering people is among those who say rape is wrong. I have no idea how any of the opponents of fox penning feels about other issues. But I do know that no matter where they stand on any other issue, it does not change the simple truth that harassing animals for pleasure is just plain wrong.
You people from the hsus are so stupid. You worry about what we are doing to much, maybe if you would worry about your kids more than your next door neigbors cat, we would have a brighter future. You say that you care about the foxs and the cyotes, i think that you are running out of things to do so you all are trying to tread new water. Please can one of you tell me this, when you send someone out to get a animal and bring him back to your place do you not put that animal in a cage,the answer is yes. Do you ever say to yourself oh im being cruel and the answer to that is no. Why do you people always try to mess with people i think people should be questioning you and PETA about you sanity and why you dont want to eat meat. Why do you people not understand that you are the ones that have a proble m oh i know maybe your parents brain washed you like your doing your kids. I love to fox hunt in the pens because we dont have to put up with fussing with land owners and and still hunters, and people like you.
Ceann,
I have never heard of bear baiting in a fox pen or bear baying. and I have never seen it at any of the pens taht I have been too. I would call that a RUMOR.
Byron (got it right that time) lol. Thank you for setting me straight on that point. I believe you. Now, I have seen tapes of dogs with thos covers on their backs with number on them. The video that I saw showed those dogs tearing apart a coyote. Now, my question is: Because these pens are so large, is it possible that coyotes and foxes could be torn apart out of sight of spectators. A spectator probably can't see everything that is going on. I also find it strange that an owner of a running pen has not commented as to what is going on in his pen. The woman that I talked to said she had to wait until everyone was gone before she picked up the dead animals. That was part of her job. Someone asked what I would like to change in the pens. I would like to see complete transparency. How much does an owner charge to run in his pen? Does he charge by the number of dogs you want to run? Does he also charge per person that you might bring with you? I sure wish I were closer. I would see for myself. Also, I don't believe a person could break up a huge dog fight to save a coyote or fox in the running pens. There are so many things that I would like to know.
Ceann
, you are going on hear say,yes i looked at the v ideos that does not happen in most pens .most pens has someone following the race for if the game gets in trouble they can help the game.Instead of listening to one person that may have a grudge against a pen , maybe you need to see for yourself what goes on.We as foxhunters do not want the game killed.That is why there are hideaways in the pens for the game to go into.
For you people that dont know: shut-up and read( oh and pay attention) FIRST: in the wild when a fox/yote gets hungry they have to hunt for food, in a pen they walk to a feeder go inside and eat all they want without being harassed! SECOND: if they don't want to be ran they simply hide all the time! I have owned fox pens and hunt in pens you can go to a pen tonight and have outstanding running and see foxes/yotes all over the place you go back to the same pen the next 2-3 or 4 times and you don't see any and have very little running and the next time game is everywhere and wall to wall running! SO IF THE GAME DOES NOT WANT TO RUN YOU OR NOTHING CAN MAKE THEM RUN !!!!
Ceann,
Those covers are called field trail blankets, which are put on to cover up the number so it doesn't mess up before the field trail starts, so that it looks good so it is visible by the judges. It is possible for them to catch one out of sight from the spectators, but like i said very seldom do they get caught. But there are judges in there that can get there and brake up the fight. They pull the dogs off, they aren't viscious they listen, and we use a catch pole to get the coyotes and put them in the dog box, sand take them out the pen, and are not put back in until healed and healthy. Seeing complete transparency would be tough to have, because then you are changing the foxes and coyotes habitat, and it was thinned out and complete transparent alot more would be caught. The cover and brush work to the advantages of the fox and coyote; they are sneaky and outsmart the dogs all the time, and hide out. It's usually $25 per dog for a field trail, and most of the time it's a benefit hunt to raise money for someone, and all the money is donated. I wish you were close too, so you could see what happens there, and that it is a family event, and that you will meet some of the nicest people in the world. If you ever make it out this way, I will show you, and you will leave some friends forever. And trust me, we get in there and break them up if they happen to get caught, whish is slim.
I have been hearing a lot about this sport the past couple of days. So I went out and bought me some fox hounds to go and catch and kill me some fox and coyote. I really want to "tear them to shreds". Went to a pen, got me some numbers, paid my entry fee, and turned them loose. Well after 5 hours of running and 217 dogs, NOT ONE DAMN FOX GOT CAUGHT!!!!! I thought you guys said you turn foxes out in a cage to be caught. WHAT GIVES? You people on here are VERY MISS-LEADING. The judges of the hunt ( all 25 of them)came out and said ,and I quote" the dogs just coundnt catch 'em. They climbed the trees and went into thier hole". So I guess I waisted all that money and time for nothing. WELL I'm giving up this blood sport and going back to kicking puppies in the head. THANKS ALOT!!!!!!!!
Dale, one of your fellow dog runners explains why the pens have to be restocked. He says:
"YOU SAY WHY DO WE NEED TO RESTOCK THESE PENS WELL IF GAME IS IN A PEN SO LONG THEY GET WHAT WE CALL PEN SMART.AND GETS HARD FOR HOUNDS TO RUN LET ALONG CATCH THEM THATS WHY THEY KEEP FRESHING THE GAME IT HELPS THE SOUND AND CRY OF THE HOUNDS"
Sounds to me like maybe the day they were NOT running for you it was because the pen had "Pen Smart" foxes and coyotes in it. Maybe the next time you went back, they had been "freshed," with new animals that didn't know how to stay out of the way so well. I'm sure that when the game was "everywhere and wall to wall running" as you said, they were also very, very frightened. I'm sure that they were also very very frightened when they were trapped and brought to the pen in the first place. It sounds to me also like your "sport" would not be much fun for you if the foxes and coyotes were NOT frightened and running.
Ceann, your right we are so diffrent, until ya'll started this bull we were left along, doing our tradition without your lovey dovey 2 cents worth. Some of your people could have recorded that footage ( who knows) if so I didn't see their hand in there to help that poor coycte... why don't you show real footage from a field trial. where judges run hard and work their a** off to save any game bayed up. You only want the bad side seen. you should take footage of an animal hit by a car mabe you can get DRIVING banned. Your reaserch must not have been to good if you could not find a good field trial to go in two years and talk to hunter and see gust how much pride the pen owners take in their game as well as the hunters do in their hounds. as for bear baiting, good luck catching a bear to tie up one leg..
COMPASSION PLEASE,
WHY HAVEN'T YOU ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS YET???? YOU KEEP AVOIDING THEM. WHY????? PLEASE REPLY...
all i hear is them hounds tearing something apart!!!!!!!!!! this is abunch of bullshit!every fox or coyote my hounds have ever caught could have cared less about riping them apart most of the time they just bay them up and let the pen owner or some other helper get there and back the dogs off and get the game and take him to another place. just for example i was at a hunt last wekk have 153 hounds in 400 acres run for 5 hours not 1 fox or coyote was caught and killed. just think what would happen if we didnt have trappers to catch them and put them into these pens they would everywere its about like that now just think if they quit catching the few that they do.
5/8/8 Lake Arrowhead, CA Coyote Drags Toddler From Front Yard. Animal Releases 2-Year-Old Girl When Mom Appears; 3rd Incident In 5 Days. A coyote grabbed a 2-year-old girl by the head and tried to drag her from the front yard of her mountain home in the third incident of a coyote threatening a small child in Southern California in five days, authorities said.
The coyote attacked the girl around noon Tuesday when her mother, Melissa Rowley, went inside the home for a moment to put away a camera, the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department said in an incident report.
Rowley came out of the house and saw the coyote dragging her daughter toward a street. She ran toward her daughter, and the animal released the girl and ran away, said sheriff's spokeswoman Arden Wiltshire. ---snip--- Full article here. Another article here. Video here.
5/2/8 Chino Hills, CA. A nanny pulled a 2-year-old girl from the jaws of a coyote Friday when the animal attacked the toddler and tried to carry her away in its mouth, officials said.
The girl was playing in a sandbox at Alterra Park in Chino Hills in San Bernardino County. Around 10:30 a.m., the caretaker heard screaming and saw a coyote trying to carry the child off in its mouth, officials said.
The babysitter grabbed the child and pulled her from the coyote's grasp, the sheriff's department said in a statement. The coyote then ran off into nearby brush.
The child suffered wounds to her buttocks and was taken to Chino Valley Medical Center and was later released, director of nursing Anne Marie Robertson said. She was later transported to Loma Linda University Medical Center to receive the rabies vaccine. ---snip--- Read news article here.
12/24/7 Erie, CO --- Woman bitten, two dogs dead after coyote attack. On Christmas Eve, Janice Shattuck and her family had to have their dog "Lola," a 3-year-old Maltese, euphemized. Earlier in the morning, another of their dogs "Eddie," a 9-year-old Jack Russell Terrier/Shih Tzu mix, died after being attacked by coyotes.
"To have this loss on Christmas Eve, it's a staggering loss. I know that may sound ridiculous, but we care so much for our dogs. It's terrible," said John Shattuck. The dogs were attacked Sunday. Janice Shattuck let two of the family's four dogs into the yard. Within minutes she heard a commotion outside and ran out to see what was happening. When she got out to the back yard she saw four coyotes, two were inside the fence. Both of her dogs were in the jaws of the coyotes. She started swinging and kicking at the coyotes hoping to free her pets. She managed to free Lola, but the coyotes dragged Eddie away. ---snip--- Read the story Here.
12/12/7 Canmore, Alberta -- Coyotes test negative for rabies after attacking 3 children.
Three coyotes have tested negative for rabies after three children were attacked last week in southern Alberta. Fish and Wildlife officers caught and tested the animals after three children were attacked in Canmore, Alta., which is about 100 kilometers west of Calgary. "Parents will probably feel relieved," said Tanya Stahl, whose four-year-old son Ethan was attacked at the town's busy Skate with Santa event Dec. 12.
The coyote first bit another 10-year-old boy on the leg. Skaters scared the animal away, but it returned and bit Ethan's jacket, said Stahl. ....snip.... Read the story Here.
7/3/7 Frankfort, Indiana -- Pit bull ailing after coyote attack. Peanut, a 1-year-old pit bull, is recovering after being attacked by a pack of coyotes Sunday afternoon. Janelle Burgin said her dog was running loose near her rural Frankfort home when she heard him squeal and knew something was wrong. He was bitten all over his hind end, had claw marks on his side and bites on his head and neck. "If we hadn't got out there, he wouldn't have stood a chance," Burgin said. When she saw the coyotes near the woods, she ran into the house to get her brother. ....snip.... Read the story here. (These have to be tough coyotes to take on
1/10/06 Asheville, NC Coyote attacks spur rabies scare.
Animal control officers captured a coyote they think attacked three people Monday, had it killed and sent a sample of its brain to a state laboratory in Raleigh to be tested for rabies.
A coyote bit landscape worker Richard Zerbe on the nose while he and colleague Eric Parsons worked at a Lakewood Drive home in Kenilworth. “It kept attacking,” said Parsons, who was blowing leaves when the incident began.
Police and health officials want people who may have been exposed to the animal to contact their health care provider or, if a pet was exposed, their veterinarian. Laura Dintsch said a coyote attacked her black Labrador at her South Beaumont Street home early Monday morning.
“If someone is exposed to rabies, they need to have a medical evaluation,” said Sue Ellen Morrison, disease control manager with the Buncombe County Health Center. Treatment generally involves an injection around the bite wound and a series of five vaccinations administered over 28 days, she said. --snip-- Read the full story here.
7/12/2005 Coyote bites country club security guard in Mashpee.
MASHPEE, Mass. - A security guard at a Mashpee country club was treated for rabies as a precaution after being bitten by a coyote last week.
A guard patrolling the grounds of Willowbend Country Club was bitten on Thursday night after apparently disturbing the coyote as it was rooting through some bags of illegally dumped household trash for food, Mashpee's animal control officer said.
"It was over food apparently," Officer June Daley told the Cape Cod Times. "It did break the skin on his leg, so he was treated for rabies as a precaution.
Brian, did someone ask if we tie Bears up by the back leg and put dogs on them? WELL ,me and you go way back and all I can say is , if YOU do the hold'em, I do the tie'en. hahahaha!!!!!!!!!There MUST be some pretty BAD fellas' here in NC to be able to do that..............GOD these people make me laugh........ AND CeAnn, thats a cool web site you have for the coyotes,and loved the calenders by the way. I saw a yote the other day that had BLUE eyes, would make a GREAT pic for it. The next time I see him, I'll take one and send it to you. But what I dont understand is if you are all about saving them, why would you support law the you have to kill them 24 hours after you catch them? There is no fur trade any more , so that just seems like a waiste to me. So they kill them and through them in a hole in the woods? Frankly ma'am I had rather them take thier chances to a fox pen.
Jerry
I truly believe that a coyote that is humanely euthanized within 24 hrs dies a less painful death than it would in a running pen. Trappers in IN were out of control. The illegal trafficing in coyotes to the Southern States running pens was something that I could not just accept and pretend it didn't exist. I have worked with captive coyotes for 22 years and had always just kept a "low profile." However when I started receiving evidence about what was happening to an animal that I deeply care about, I had to stand and be counted. I am getting old and will go down fighting for God's Dog.
you bleeding heart liberals sicken me with your bullshi# reterick you need to put more energy in to something that would help the country instead of trying to ruin someones sport or passion why not go after the illegal aliens who other countries are exporting to our county to take our jobs rape our woman ,kill our children and just about run our goverment ,oh I know why because all of you on this bandwagon make money off of these activities ,like lawyers,special interest groups ,goverment officials ,well let me let you in on a little secret I talked with a senator today from NC and he said that this is just the tip of the iceberg on what you people are about and that senator neal hunt has never or even been to a field trial and that very likely this bill will never pass the state floor because the vidieos that you people are showing has been traced back ,are you ready for this to a group that is backed by the animal activists organazations and was staged to further their agenda,uh oh you have been found out just like you were in eastern NC when they were found dumping dead dogs and cats into dumpsters all over town that had been killed by the same organazation who had taken them from people who owned them so come on lets get real what are you paying the represenatives that are pushing these bills ?and I promise you do not want this type of bills to be passed because if it is what are all the people who love this sport going to do in their free time ,go after something you enjoy like cell phone use while driving or baseball,football,sticking your nose in other peoples buisness ?get a life and do something other than seeing if you can stir up something you know nothing about remember this will work both ways .
LONG LIVE PEN RUNNING AND OUTSIDE HUTING.........
LONG LIVE PEN RUNNING AND OUTSIDE HUTING.........
A rabid fox has bitten a woman in Kure Beach.
It happened while she was bird watching near the National Guard Base at Fort Fisher yesterday.
This is the second time a human has come in contact with a rabid animal in New Hanover County this year.
They immediately sent the fox to the state lab in Raleigh to test its brain tissue for rabies.
The test came back positive.
Now, New Hanover County Animal Control is sending an officer to the base to brief residents on the situation.
They could not release any information about the victim, but post exposure vaccinations are available.
Residents on the base say they see foxes all the time.
Rabies is a communicable disease, so all rabies victims fall under HIPPA laws.
Rabies can be transmitted by a bite from a wild animal like a fox,skunk,raccoon or coyotes.
One of the most distinct signs of rabies infection is a tingling sensation around the area of the bite.
And the fisherman justify their cold blooded bludgeoning on 280,000 INFANT harp and hooded seals in the face with their spiked clubs!
And the food industry justifies their abject, abominable torture of BILLIONS of cows, pigs, lambs, etc....every year around he globe for "food" that has caused human hearts, brains, kidneys. livers, breasts, prostate glands, and blood streams to require over a billion perscriptions for medications, countless by-pass operations, a heart attack every 30 seconds, dimentia rising like the floods in North Dakota, and wildlife slaughtered for jungles to be leveled for cattle!
The entire earth has become man's slaughterhouse because of the perversity of ttitude that enables humans to live like predators.
Fox penning is but one issue in the larger vision of the world today with all its cruelty and violence, all rooted in the hard heartedness required to massacre animals.
Watch the video of what the sealers are up to now www.protectseals.org
They claim to have a right to do this dirty and grotesque work too.
You afford yourselves a schizophrenic behavior since if anyone put you prescious dogs in a pen, and let a cougar or lion go after them, you'd be quite disturbed, as we are at the massacre of fox and coyote. If your dogs were hunted, you might not like it, as we hate your violence to other animals who are no different and deserve to live without being violated by humans who learned cruelty at a very young age.
If your "rights" to slaughter animals are taken, it will only be the circle of what you take from animals who you afford NO rights to, animals who desire to LIVE without stress, terror, pain and fear, as we ALL do.
You are the socially retarded sector of humanity bringing the damn world into the cesspool of blood. Bragging about killing "BIG GAME" ? THis is like the rapist bragging about his victims.
What kind of people get kcks from killing animals who have no chance, in a damn pen...
Find other ways to entertain our sorry ass selves.
New Hanover County has had seven confirmed cases of animals with rabies this year, more than in all of 2007 and 2008 combined.
Animal control officials say rabies reports, for the most part among wild animals, appear to cycle up and down locally, though the viral disease is always around at some level in the community.
Since mid-February, seven raccoons have been caught and tested positive for rabies in the county.
A rabid fox bit a Bald Head Island woman on the ankle on Jan. 14, said Fred Michael, Brunswick County’s deputy health director. He said police killed the fox, and the woman was treated for rabies exposure.
In Pender County, another rabid fox fought with a dog on Hampstead’s St. Johns Church Road, said animal control supervisor Steve Throneburg. The dog’s owner shot the fox, which tested positive for rabies.
CeAnn....The video to which you refer was the one made at a pen in Alabama. The whole episode evolved during a NASTY DIVORCE between the pen owner and his wife. The wife wanted a large divorce settlement!! This was the video shown on the TV station in Atlanta. She was trying to get even with him due to the settlement!! There was a lot more to what happened, and the woman was proven to be lying about pickin up the dead animals etc. However,this never made it onto to TV stations news. All that was shown was the set up that she created to cause the "ex" financial problems!!
You may know a lot more about coyotes than many of us, but the population of this animal has exploded. It is a predatory animal. Have you ever seen the results of them attacking and killing sheep? It happens daily in western Virginia and causes financial hardships on the farmers. They kill them and leave them laying there. Have you ever seen young deer that were caught and killed by coyotes? Happens daily! To me; that is blood-sport.....they kill for the sake of killing!!
Population of animal species such as the coyote must be controlled or will grow to the point of eliminating other species! Do you want to see that happen? Why do you think there are hunting seasons for all types of game animals? Population control. It is necessary to help maintain some balance in nature!!
To address the issue of foxes & coyotes that are living in an enclosure...these animals are innoculated, fed daily, have man made and natural routes of escape and safe havens. The quantities of the escapes and havens are established by the quantity of animals, and the acreage of the enclosure.
The foxes and coyotes will reproduce within these enclosures , and raise their young. NOW...if this is a "BLOOD SPORT" (your adjective); then how could these events happen? There is nothing wrong with you wanting to rescue and save animals. To each his own. However; contrary to what you might think; the same is being done inside the enclosure; but also provides an area to train hounds to run by scent the animals inside. Granted, on occaision, there are a few animals caught. Normally this is an older or weakend animal, and the same end result would occur in the wild.....again, a balance of nature, and population control. so actually you and many "pen owners" as you call them are doing the same thing; just through different avenues!!
No one wants to see the animals caught; the enlcosure owners, due to the expense of acquiring and maintaining the animals, the hunters; because they do not want their hounds hurt nor injured; and the respect of the enclosure owner; as well as respect for the game animal being chased.
You; nor any of the animal rights activist (PETA,HSUS) nor any other organization,realize the economic impact (and probably don't care) that hunting with hounds;outside or inside an enclosure has upon this country.
Just the food alone is a multi-billion (yes,not million,but billion) dollar industry annualy. The vehicles purchased(thousands upon thousands), the equipment needed & purchased is a multi million dollar annual contribution. Millions of dollars are spent yearly in the motel/hotel industry, the same for the food service industry; vetreinarians receive millons annually from hound owners! It goes on and on....
So if hunting in enclosures, field trials etc were banned; it would have a trmendous impact on the economy of this country. Especially in the current economic conditions...do you/we want to see this happen? I would think not!!
I would hope that you would rethink your position on this matter; as would the politicians considering it; and relaize that not everyone agrees on everything....that is what made this the great country that it is....ones ability to have "freedom of choice"..."to live and let live"....to enjoy the past times, hobbies, and things in life that we enjoy!!
The banning of enclosures is NOT needed, nor warranted!
ALLAN BISHOP
beth sound like you think that you are smarter than everyone and the world would be better if everyone was like you. i bet you allso think that you are a open minded person? when did you begin to think you were a god like being?if you do not what to eat meat thats cool but what about the poor veggies. they have feeling too and you KILL then so you can live.we are a are socially retarted, humm our kids dont get in the type of trouble that most kids get in cuz we spend a lot of time with them. they say yes sir and yes ma they show repect the older folks and work hard at evey thing they do.you know nothing about something but cuz you dont like what you have heard you come on here and talk about it. do you drive a car,live in a house if so you have taken places to live and kill more critters than we have in a fox pen. we also have hounds that run lions and cougar so you can turn them loose any time you what. beth may be you are the socially retarted one if you think that your way are the only way folks should live.
You people that want to ban pen running are the same people that are for abortion, gun control, and taking the rights away from the Americans. You should be ashamed.
Allan. That was a well thought out post. However, when you talk about the coyote population exploding. You are correct. The more coyotes you kill, the more coyotes you will have. It is called Compensatory Response to Lethal Control. If you read Bob Crabtrees article on my web site I think it will interest you. I have been researching this for the last month and have found a study on deer that was done in 1986. At that time it was called Compensatory Rebound. The study was done in Florida and involved two groups of wihte tailed deer. One group was hunted and one was not. The hunted group of deer had more triple births and the does got pregnant at a younger age. Very interesting study. I am interested in finding out when we were first told we had to "manage" our wildlife. We as a society have screwed up, royally. If you would like a copy of the deer study, just send me your email address.
I believe if you ask the folks on Bald Head and in Smithfield and Biltmore Estate they would disagree with the deer study!!! I can take you to places that allow no hunting and PROVE this wrong!!!!! This is my experience based on first hand ,see it with my own eyes,experience!! I have also hunted in areas where the deer were hunted out and it took several years for them to rebound!! May look good on paper,but thats about it!!! The study is in Florida,they have poor soils and no nutrition,this may have had an affect on the herds as well!!!
I have been feil trialing now for a little wile, the people I have meet have been some of the nicest and helpful people I have ever meet in my life. I love this sport it is not however a bloodsport. We do everything in our power to protect the animals both hounds and GAME. If you want to pass judgement on my sport than come to a trial first then you will be able to speake the truth. Miss Lambert you are free to speak your minde but tell the truth when it comes to my sport. If you have never been you are now welcome to join me next weekend. As for dogs turning on each outher I have never seen that at a trial. I love my hounds as if they were my kids (no I do not have kids as of now) I just love to see them do what they were bred to do, and be for you say to tear apart helpless animals that is false they were bred to chase. I don't mean to rude but come see for you self b/4 talking.
Scott Smith
S. Smith Kennels
d allen it is a flaw study cuz in till a few year ago fl was a buck only state. most state land are still buck only and does keep going in to heat in till they are breed. most have one doe and one buck. it dont take a math person to know what will happen. nice try but as we say that dog will not hunt.
Most studies are flawed and geared to go one way or the other! We have several guys who come from Florida to hunt with us,I know what their herds consist of!! There is a reason they come to NC to hunt!! If this study were true I wouldnt have to drive all over the place to find rabbits to hunt!! Someone needs to tell the bunnies about Compensatory Response to lethal control!
CeAnn...I have read all of your posts. They all have one thing in common. You are basing your "beliefs" and so called knowledge on "research." One cant help to conclude that your research is not first hand knowledge, rather some kind of "fixed study" you have done behind your computer. I challenge you to visit several field trials and gather your information and then go back and conduct a study. Matter of fact, go to the hunts that involve the Special Olympics, Church fund raisers, families in need, disaster relief and child benefits. Do some research on how much proceed is given back. While you are there, research how much money is generated into the town/county local economy. I believe you will find that much more good is done than what you ever imagined! Of course keep your close trained eye open for how many poor innocent animals are torn to shreds in your self described blood sport. Its obvious from reading your responses you truly have no clue as to what is going on. In the meantime, maybe we should do a benefit hunt for the animal shelters to keep them afloat. Surely they would appreciate our generosity! PETA and HSUS is blowing this big smoke screen to the American people about the good they do for "animals." Maybe we will even post a poll and website on how many animals are exterminated by these groups so that the people have a clear understanding on WHO is the radical killer!! We should even make it clear to them how much of the Millions of dollars that are donated to the radicals actually goes to protect and care for those dogs/cats.
CeAnn, GOD bless you , but I cant see it. HOW and why would a coyote want to be SHOT throught the head with a gun ,rather then be placed in a 500+ acre preserve where he is feed and taken care off. Your a COOL lady with a big heart, but maybe you should go back and ask them that question a different way. Maybe you should ask: you can live, be feed and taken care of , but a dog will chase you OR.... have a 45 grain BULLET SHOT THROUGH YOUR SKULL....If you had rather have them shot then, They must not be very tough Yotes in Indiana.Which bring me to my next question...What does any of this have to do with you? If I come and put a fox pen in your back yard then by all means, BITCH about it if you must. BUT WE ARE NOT IN YOUR BACK YARD! I think if 1 or 2 people become 1 with nature, then nature benefits. We need a balance.But If we all become 1 with nature, it will destroy itself. IN a much more painful way then BEING CHASED BY A DOG. Like I said you have done some GREAT work with this project, by the looks of your website, BUT you are wrong on sooooo many points. YOUR FACTS just dont add up.COMMON SENCE will always WIN over beliefs...STICK TO Indiana, we have enough LOONS already.
CeAnn...Studies are just that....and whether or not you want to believe it or not....most are done to justify the thoughts or ideas of the ones doing the study! As for game control...it has always been done, since we landed on this continet in 1607!! And without it, some animals would become extinct & some have due to "NOT having game controls! I'm not an animal expert, don't claim to be; but I do have enough sense to know that unchecked, a species will proliferate to the point of taking over an area, or be eradicated and become extinct!
Whether you like it or not, animal control through the harvesting of game is the only way we to keep some balance. and actually the loss of game inside the wire is minimal when compared to loss through natural cause in the wild!
But the issue here here is to close field trials and all pen enclosures. It is only not right to do so, but also infringes on ones right to freely choose;as provided in the Constitution of the United States! But here in the 21st century, there are forces trying to eradicate the right to choice. And that is incorrect!!
That is why we are suppose to have that abiltiy to live freely and choose!
No one says that you do not have the right to help save animals. nothing wrong with that! But to try and control what others choices are is not right; from you nor anyonr else!
If PETA & HSUS chose to truly do what they say...then they would expend their monies establishing havens to save, nourish, and provide homes for all types of animals. PETA is the largest source of animal euthansia in the United States!! So what are they saving? Nothing...they are killing animals to help their agenda. HSUS does not support nor spend any money toward the saving or treatment of animals...they spend millions trying to force upon the rest of us their beliefs! Most people across the US do love animals. However some harvest game for the purpose of eating; and yes, others do for sport! But it is not right for them to try to tell me through their lobbying efforts to establish laws as to how I hunt, where I hunt, and what game animals or species I hunt.
Hate to say it, but I spend more money on my hounds in one year than HSUS spends across the United States to try and save a hound or any other animal!
They are about eradicating ones right of choice and exercising their own dictatorial agenda of all animal species!!
Ones right of choice to hunt, harvest game, or pursue game is ours to make! PETA nor HSUS are going to make that choice for me!!
I would applaud them and be a supporter of either or both organizations were they truly trying to help save animals, or make it a better habitat for them; even were they to take a realistic approach about spay & neuter!! But they don't....thay unfortunately take a very RADICAL...all or nothing approach!!
And don't think for a minute that hunters and houndsmen/women are going to go quietly away; while some legislator gets his political contribution for reelection, without tough opposition! It is a sad state in this country when money can purchase idealogy, rights of choice, and life through something as known as a lobbiest!! They and the legislators will lead to the ruin of this nation with their greed!!
ALLAN BISHOP
Jerry To answer your question about why I care. IN DNR was part of the US Government raid on the southern dog running pens. They were there because IN coyotes had been sold illegally to those pens. Our IN DNR saw first hand the barrells and barrells of confscated, torn apart, coyotes and foxes. One of our DNR officers said that you could not look into those barrells and not feel some compassion and empathy for the animals in those barrells. He said that it was clear that they had died horrible, painful deaths. I care, because IN trappers can still sell IN coyotes they trap live during their trapping season. We stopped it for seven months of the year. They can still sell live coyotes the other five months. That is why it is my business. The fight still goes on. The USDA APHIS WS has spent billions of taxpayer dollars trying to exterminate the coyote through various methods. Poison, denning, trapping and aerial shooting. It has all been wasted money. There are more coyotes now that ever. I am reminded of the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" I say if it is broke, then try a different way to fix it. Talk about government waste!
One more thing, I have nothing to do with PETA.
Well ceann...I see you did not accept the invitation that myself and a couple others extended to you. Regardless of which organization you belong too...I'm sure you can make the trip from IN to NC. I mean, after all, what happens in NC is so near and dear to your heart! Heck, I'll offer you a roundtrip plane ticket and shuttle from the airport to accompany us "hicks" to a benefit field trial. It would benefit your research and give you some first hand data to take back to IN and plug into your computer. What more could you ask for? True Southern Hospitality!!
you do away with what our founding fathers did your giving up history. just think about how many hounds that will be put down or turned lose . what is more cruel killing all these hounds that do this chasing by "nature" and even send these coyotes and fox's out to starve. in the wild . coyotes will!!!! they are dangerous!! have you ever encountered a pack. probably not!!! besides you humain people need to start worrying more about the people that don't care for there animals or cant take care of them. most of you humin society would rather kill than save lets just make that clear. just think about it i say lets ban the humain society , peta, and all these organizations that don't believe in a free country. just my short thought. thanks for reading. and trust me i can keeep going if you like.
COMPASSION PLEASE,
WHAT HAPPENED?
To all coyote lovers if I can't run one with my dogs then I will make it may misson in life to try and eradicate them from the face of the earth. If you go out west they kill them wholesale and even put bounties on them. They are hunted constantly and the people out there hate them. The coyote lovers need to talk to the ones that were trying to kill one of my calves. I gave them a good treatment of lead. There is a friend of mine that the coyotes came into his yard and killed his house cat and yard dog but I guess it would be inhumane to kill the coyote. I'll call one of these idiots and let them talk to the coyote. On second thought they can't go there he killed them. You coyote lovers need to go to Dunn N.C. where that farmer lost 26 calves and had to hire hunters to kill the coyotes. I bet he loves them. The lady said she was going to protect Gods animal I believe it says in that book that God gave Man domian over all the animals.
Josh.
I'm sorry. There is no way that I can come to NC. I wish I could, but I have 24 coyotes, 1 fox and four dogs to take care of. Plus, my attorney would probably throw a "hissy" fit. I thought that maybe I could drive down. I have an intern moving in on tuesday for six months. I looked on the map. It is a long way. I would not fly! Have you noticed the number of planes falling out of the sky, lately? It is scary. I want to thank you and your friends for inviting me. I think you are sincere.
This sport is NOT about killing anything! It is about the chase, a sport where we have met and made many friends. We have also attended as well as helped put on SEVERAL benefit hunts, from helping the American Cancer Society, Crossroads for sexually abused children and adults and various individual's who have had sick children or themselves and need help paying medical expenses. Fox/coyote hunting and field trialing has raised $THOUSANDS$ of dollars to help various people and organizations. You will not find a finer set of folks out there who will come together to help their fellow man in need. Also, our welding fabricating business speciality is building dog boxes for these hunters. Shutting this sport down will put us out of business, not the American way. Those of you bashing this, in my opinion apparently have nothing better to do with your time. You obviously have very empty lives to look for something to shut down that you know absolutely NOTHING about!
CeAnn, I didnt ask why You Care for the coyote, but why you care what happens 600 miles away from you. I can assure it would turn my stomic to see a barrel of DEAD COYOTEs and FOXES. I feel compassion everytime I see one dead on the side of the highway. And I know I would if I were to see one "torn to shreds" in a fox pen. BUT I run in a PEN at least 2 time a week. FEILD TRIAL every weekend and I DO NOT SEE IT. NOW you say you have several coyotes in captive for re-abilitation. PETA and the HSUS will have you in thier sights next. Now if you say NOT because you have a permit,WELL , we have one too. ISSUED and CONTROLED by the same type of DNR as you . I offer a hand in friendship to you , not because you are miss guided , but because you have SOME good insight on the YOTEs. Plus I cant say have compassion for my RIGHTS and not have it for yours.You have made this a very BIG part of your life and I SALUTE you for it. This is why I asked WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE? in the fox pens. The stuff you showed in that video was like, ALLEN said, propaganda for a DIVORCE .SAD thing is the footage had nothing to do with that perticular pen which was in the settlement. It was taken in some other state.CeAnn there are not just 3 or 4 people up here saying they are "for" or "against".as you can tell.And look at ALL the "fors" and you will see that EVERYONE of them say the same thing, NO FOX OR COYOTE is turned out for the purpose of catching or harming. At least 35 of 40 differnent ones have all had the same exact story And from ALL differnt pens across NC. And who would know better, one who THINKS or ones who KNOWS.
In a world where humans are the only mammal over populating the earth, allowing wildlife to live their life without our inhumane concept of "sport" is so very important to everyone's future. It is most certainly a reflection of our society, how we treat our animals.
Cheri the INHUMANE going on in OUR society is the fact that people take lies and run them as TRUTH. Whats inhumane, is the CRAP they are teaching our kids in schools.Whats Inhumane the the number of people who deficate on not only the constitution, but the BIBLE, and call it "THEIR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH". Whats inhumane is fighting for the right for 2 men ,or 2 women , to lay together and calling it MARRAGE. What inhumane in Aborting a child, who has no choice, and calling it a womans RIGHT. Whats inhumane is that there are 10.7% of people in NC with out jobs and FOX PENS are the topic of the week. Call it a "blood sport" or what ever you want. But the fact is that the people who participate in this sport ARE THE TRUE BACKBONES of society. GOD fearing, hard working, and a general respect for other people. Something you know nothing about. NoW if you have a problem with humans over populating the world, them by all means move to MARS. Make some room for someone who can make a difference .
Dog Running as a sport is more than just a bunch of hicks letting some dogs loose. It is a tradition that has been passed from generation to generation and has kept numerous young men and women from getting into drugs, alcohol, gangs, etc. I personally spend my weekends at the fox pen with my daughter. We acutually judged pen running this weekend and every effort was made to ensure the safety of the game. As a matter of fact my daughter almost got run over by the man in charge of the safety of the game. He was on his way to make sure that the bayed game was not injured. The very people that post on this site that complain about animals being harmed are so closed minded that if in fact they were invited to witness dog running they would not show up anyway. I have a one week old baby boy and i cannot wait until he can enjoy dog running with me.
Bruce and Ashley never mind the fact that we, as fox hunters, know what goes on inside of the fox pen. Never mind that this sport we enjoy is the LAST TRUE FAMILY SPORT. And never mind All the GOOD we try and do for our fellow man by putting on these hunts. Lets look at the people who call this sport a "Blood sport". These people fight for the rights of animals who could really careless for their well being.Thou I respect CeAnn for what she does, there is a passage on her website that says" the coyote will lift his leg to piss on the skull of the last person".WELL CeAnn ,if you were to fall down and hurt yourself inside of their pen, GOD FORBID, and could not get out to feed those yotes for a couple of days,I bet you they would TURN on you and EAT you. JUST like the man who went out in the wild to show how HUMANS where destroying the habitate of the Grizzly , only to be tracked down and eaten by the very thing he was trying to save. GIVING a wild animal a name DOES NOT MAKE HIM LOVE YOU. Look at that CRAZY lady with Travis the Chimp. She bathed with him, bought him cloths and put him on Prozac only to have him MAUL her best friend and be shot by COPS. And they call us SICK? I AM AT THE TOP OFF THE FOOD CHAIN and plan to stay there...AND I DO NOT FEEL BAD ABOUT THAT...........
read about what these activists are doing with your money. go to www.consumerfreedom.com/article-detail.cfm/article/1154 this should make you take notice.
You choose to move or retire to our beautiful South because it is a better way of life, better schools and healthy for your family. You buy .5 acre of land and build your home. You settle in and then start complaining of how we live and have lived here forever. You attack our outdoor heritage. You call us hicks, rednecks and other names. You then begin to think your .5 acre gives you the right to dictate what happens on the 500 acres around you. You attend County meetings, school board meetings and some of you run for political office to change things. You want them like they were where you came from. Move back, dont move here in the first place. Ever heard, "the South will rise again?" Start trying to take our sports and heritage, disrupt our way of life and push your radical liberal agendas on us and you will see first hand the RISE of all southerners!!! Dont tread on US!!!
These comments are getting way off topic and seem to be getting nasty and rude. I am bowing out. I feel that I have met some really nice people. I am sorry for the fight you are going to go through. It will get dirty. I have my own battle here in IN. I know that once the can of worms is opened, you can never get all of them back in the can.
In a pen fox/coyotes are given food, water and shelter and are not ran by hounds 24/7. Outside the pen competion of food and shelter are great. Animals in the wild do not live some "disney" type of life, every day is a struggle for survival. I would say the majority of fox and coyotes in pens have a better life, being they have the essentials given to them.
We agree with you Darron! A point I failed to mention yesterday is the farmers would have to agree as well. Fox and Coyote destroy their chickens and other small livestock just trying to survive. Injured game is NEVER put in a pen because that would be cruel. We most frequently hunt at the Tar River in Creedmore on the video and you should see the game coming out at feeding time, its almost as if they are domesticated to a point when they know the sound of the food coming in. They have plenty of dens and feeders to get in for shelter and a natural water source. These hounds are natural born runners/hunters and are only interested in the CHASE of it.
Ce Ann! U are so full of something and not sure what that is quite yet! I have read all of your post and it is OBVIOUS that you do not have a clue to what you are talking about! And yes, I did see the videos you were talking about and they have nothing to do with fox pens! Did you see a pen anywhere in the video or pics? Didnt think so! All of those pics were taken outside of a foxpen! I would be willing to pay you to come with me and my buddies and family when we go run so you would quit specalating on what really happens and find out the truth! Do you even know how hard it is to catch a fox or a coyote in a pen with dogs? No, didnt think u did! Well one reason it is so hard is because there are so many of them in one pen that they switch off very often! No pen ive ever been to only has one or two foxes in there! Like I said before you are clueless about what you are talking about! And it really burns me up when i hear people like you badmouthing something myself and a lot of others love with a passion! These pens are places our children, and families and friends come together as one! And we including myself are not ready to give it up yet! So before you go badmouthing this again you need to come check it out first hand! Im sure any of us up here would love to show you what really goes on! And im really glad to see everyone come together on this and try to save this sport wo love so much!
I have noticed that reading these comments, only one side of the people arguing have the conviction and pride and use their real names I also realise by the comments that the other side would oppose any kind of hunting or harvesting of animals whether in a pen or not....
CeAnn, I would just like to correct you on the accuracy of your statement about the videos. Those video clips are from your home state and they are not in a training enclosure, so I really question your being witness to them, they were actually taken in the wild on public land and the practices used for those particular hunts are not practiced in ANY TRAINING ENCLOSURES, those videos were take by a Coyote Hunting outfitter that has a license from your state and it is a legal hunting method to control the coyote population.
Coyotes are considered a nuisance animal by almost every DNR in the country and they sanction controlled hunting (dog hunting being one method) many states have an open season with a bounty to keep the population under control. NC sets guidelines and strictly regulates the trapping season for the specific purpose of maintaining a controlled population of predators. There are only 2 options for the captured game, death or the release into a training enclosure. This is a necessary practice to provide a balanced population seeing as the coyote has no natural predators.
Many states allow poisoning, snare traps and other practices that endanger all wildlife in the area; this is a more humane option for controlling populations. The other alternative is over population, which results in disease, attacks on pets and children as well as endangering other wild animal populations.
PETA and other organizations like them only look at the small picture when it comes to anything related to hunting or population control, some believe that an animals life is more important than a humans which is supported by past actions of some AR groups. In one of your posts you said you are not a member of PETA but your comments on the site you referenced for the videos, specifically the one about the man shot while coyote hunting tells the real truth about your affiliations. Shear joy about the shooting. Reading through all the posts you seemed to be one of the few who had some facts to share on the real issue but whether misinformed, mislead or just simply close-minded your true color came through.
Just a side note to educate you on our conservation efforts, in the late 80’s early 90’s Eastern NC had a serious bout with distemper in fox and decimated the population, through the efforts of the sportsman of this state the population has rebounded to where they are nearing over population again in many areas. The tax dollars generated from hunting licenses, hunting enclosures and hunting equipment provided the resources for that to happen as well as fund conservation program that benefit non-hunters as well.
Where were you and the other AR folks at when over population caused this problem?
You want the truth about coyote pens? Here's the truth:
nitro.20m.com/
www.rapidcreekridgekennels.20m.com/
Yeah, real compassionate and caring right there. -.-
Real humane alright. http://rapidcreekridgekennels.20m.com/photos.htm
Thanks for directing us to that site,that fellow has some awesome hounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only fence I saw on this site was a torn down cattle fence!!!!!!!!!!! Probably cause they had eaten all the cattle!!!!!!!!!!!! We know why people dont post their names,because their full of crap!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way,my pen is rockin and rollin right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND WILL BE TILL THE DAY I DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guarantee it!!
Well I just checked out that website, and like i thought ,it has nothing to do with FOX PENS. Cant you LOONS find one credable piece of info to use. These guys HUNT and KILL coyotes.And NOT ONE OF THOSE DOGS WERE IN A FOX PEN OR A FIELD TRIAL. Keep trying GUYS. to be sure you cant be LOSERS all your life.
NC including most states require safe haven exits or safety dens 1 every 35 acres that the fox or coyote can get away from the dogs.Food is often placed in the safety dens so the coyotes or foxes learn their where abouts.Foxes are good climbers easily eluding the hounds.All this attack stuff on these law abiding fox houndsman is HARRASSMENT and the remarks as one lawyer reading them as slanderous and subject to a civil suit.The wildlife commission inspects these refuges and the condition of the animals.They are well fed even vaccinated by a local veterinary. One has caught hundreds of these animals without even a single injury.Improved trap safety design has gained much ground in the last 10 years.These animals are far bettter off in these refuges than being shot or poisioned as often occurrs in rural settings due livestock losses.Some states even Canada now have a bounty on these predators.You are out of line and subject to a civil suit with the here says as most judges call them or false allegations.My cousin has been to hundreds of these trials and has yet to here of a fox or coyote getting caught thanks to these safety havens required, and the fact they switch off almost like kids playing tag.I appreciate people that love animals as I am a big softy, but really this is all hype and erroneous speculation.Please stop before some one gets sued it is about to that point.
Steve , by God sign me up ! I really want a piece of those people that come on here with there propaganda and miss leading facts. And I really want a piece of ANY reporter that trys and back up these LIES with MORE LIES. NO wonder these A-holes want post thier REAL names. This is GREAT info , and thanks!
I am going to try this again since my last comment doesn't show up! This nation gives us the right to have our own oppinions, religions, traditions, and sports. Thats why I am PROUD TO BE A CITIZEN OF THE USA!!! As I said you are entitled to our oppinions but take the time to get some facts before you are start labeling people and their way of life. Hunters are not the inhumane selfish killers we are made out to be. Their are posts up here talking about the dangers foxes and coyotes face in a pen. Pens give a coyote and fox a habitat to live in. They are fed, watered, medicated, and given man made places of safe haven when they get in a tough situation. They are taken out of your communities, highways, places of business, and backyards. Do the animals get injured (our dogs included) - sometimes yes but the big majority of time the fox out smarts the dogs and gets away. The pen owners and hunters try to nurse the foxes and coyotes back to health just as we do with our hounds. If penning is stopped you will have overpopulated, sick, and starving coyotes and foxes in your backyard. Do you really want a starving coyote in your backyard where your kids play? I know I don't. If the state wants to regulate or ban fox pens the best thing they can do is let professionals handle the situation. The NC wildlife comission has the knowledge and resources to make an informed decision without relying on heresay from both extremes, lobbyist, and radical organizations. This issue does not need to be an issue of the NC congress THEY CAN NOT MAKE AN INFORMED UNBIASED DECISION. I can go on all night defending a sport I love and am proud to be associated with but I will end by saying this ... we will fight to defend our sport and tradition just as much as you will to end it.
I am sorry that everyone thinks we are dumb rednecks...I am 19 and have hunted my whole life I love the sport. I also graduated number 2 in my class with over a 4.0 GPA. I am in college and have over a 3.59 GPA. We are not dumb. The people trying to stop this are from a different society and a different life style then we are. You will never understand and will never try too. The best thing you can do is to believe in someone else and let us take care of our bussiness. The animals are fine they are in better health then they are outside of pens I have seen both sides. They are strong and healthy. Outside ones are very poor with mange. Try looking at the sport from our angle. You people have never seen or experienced what we have. Our church is using a field trial to raise money for a mission trip. There are more important things for your organizations to worry about.
The sad thing is these folks get their information from PETA or HSUS blogs and websites. The even sader thing is, they dont want to hear the truth or research the facts. They are all one way and fixed on their beliefs. Unfortunately, their DNA made them this way. Neither you or I will change their impotent minds! They are the same ones who believe we SHOULD have a Socialist government, give out our Tax dollars to Illegals and those who CHOOSE to reproduce and not work. You see, we sportsmen are of sound minds and judgement. We make logical decisions, take care of our Families, help out our neighbors and believe in GOD! I will tell you this: YOU will not take my Freedom, right to bear arms or my GOD given right to enjoy the outdoors, to include FOX PENS! You will have a Battle on your hands that you really dont want to fight. You see, all of us are ready to FIGHT!
Are you animal rights nuts for real????? If you have never been or seen an actual field trial, then you can't truly form an opinion. And for the Lambert gal from IN, I'm not sure what planet you are really from, but have some common sense. Things happen that are beyond your control. We own a pen, and we are checked by our game wardens regularly to make sure the game is adequately taken care of. The game is fed, wormed, and given shots just like our dogs are, so I don't appreciate you grouping all in the same boat. Nothing that happens is intentional, just like someone running over a critter with their car doesn't do it on purpose, you try to avoid it happenning.
The proper term is 'sport hunting'. Ethical hunters are appalled by the thought of killing a 'penned' animal. Those who support it have no argument. Mostly lazy cowards, you know, 'macho' types that don't have the inclination to go into the woods and do real hunting. They want the kill, but don't want to do the work. Bragging rights anyone? "Hey Joe, that was one tough kill I had last weekend". Enough to make you vomit. I would like to come face to face with one of these cowards.
The justification of feeding, worming and giving shots before these animals are used for live bait training just doesn't fly. Those things are done more to protect the dogs than the coyotes and foxes. It is also done beause the states are requiring it to protct any coyotes and foxes in the wild due to escapes of coyotes and foxes from the pens. Are the dogs used in the trials the same dogs that are then used to hunt coyotes in the wild. If so, that is live bait dog training and it must stop. England doesn't even allow fox hunting with dogs anymore. Why are we in the US still participating in this barbaric sport. someone please answer this question for me. What is a $20,000 hunt. Is there any betting that takes place during these events? Is the IRS aware of all of the cash that is changing hands. What about the state tax people? One pen talks about 200 dogs at $25 per dog. That is a lot of money. Another site talks about $50 per dog. There is a lot of cash flowing through these pens. You need to visit Vargys web site. Those are running pens, I believe in Iowa. This is a very brutal activity and no wild animal should be put through it just simply to bring pleasure to sadistic animal abusers. It will be stopped!
Mama Coyote, you got some NERVE talking about someone needing the IRS looking into an organization when PETA and the HSUS are the BIGGEST tax cheats out there. They make TIM GEITNER look like he works for min.wage.Now I have been to the Vargys web site. THOSE GUYS HUNT THE OUTSIDE!!!!All the info you are getting is from the websites on how in-humane coyotes are treated,ALSO blame the BUSH adm. for the 9-11 attacts. It also call WARD CHURCHILL a hero.And the USA is still hidding UFOs. AND NOBODY IS BUYING THAT CRAP EITHER!!!!!!!!!You guys are LOONS!!!!!. Were you at the PETA rally yesterday where they protested the use of GOATS at Camp Lejeune being used as stand-in for wounded soldiers? NO ONE listens to what you say, cause you are a RADICAL, ECO TERROREST. YOU HATE AMERICA and all it stands for. YOU have no pride in yourself. IF you did , you would post your real name. You may provide the kool aid, MAMA YOTE, but aint NO ONE is going to drink it.
I saw your post on Vargys. As far as the IRS goes, I just wanted you to know what you guys are in for. There are going to be a lot of questions from different government entities. You didn't answer my questions. What is a $20,000 hunt and is there gambling involved? This is a dirty little secret that has been let out of the bag. Just like with Michael Vick. Dog fighting is illegal and coyotes and foxes are being used to circumvent the dog fighting laws of the states. Live bait dog training must stop. You will never convince me that dogs that are trained to tear apart and kill coyotes in the wild and were trained in the running pens, do not kill the foxes and coyotes in the pens. Just isn't logical.
Public Records: PETA Found Adoptive Homes for Less than 1 out of 300 Animals
Animal lovers worldwide now have access to more than a decade’s worth of proof that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) kills thousands of defenseless pets at its Norfolk, Virginia headquarters. Since 1998, PETA has opted to “put down” 21,339 adoptable dogs, cats, puppies, and kittens instead of finding homes for them.
PETA’s “Animal Record” report for 2008, filed with the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, shows that the animal rights group killed 95 percent of the dogs and cats in its care last year. During all of 2008, PETA found adoptive homes for just seven pets.
Just seven animals -- out of the 2,216 it took in. PETA just broke its own record.
Why would an animal rights group secretly kill animals at its headquarters? PETA’s continued silence on the matter makes it hard to say for sure. But from a cost-saving standpoint, PETA’s hypocrisy isn’t difficult to understand: Killing adoptable cats and dogs – and storing the bodies in a walk-in freezer until they can be cremated – requires far less money and effort than caring for the pets until they are adopted.
PETA has a $32 million annual budget. But instead of investing in the lives of the thousands of flesh and blood creatures in its care, the group spends millions on media campaigns telling Americans that eating meat, drinking milk, fishing, hunting, wearing leather shoes, and benefiting from medical research performed on lab rats are all “unethical.”
The bottom line: PETA’s leaders care more about cutting into their advertising budget than finding homes for the nearly six pets they kill on average, every single day.
The Virginia Beach SPCA, just down the road from PETA’s Norfolk headquarters, manages to adopt out the vast majority of the animals in its care. And it does it on a shoestring budget.
Years of public outrage has not been enough to convince PETA to eliminate its pet eradication program.
Now the death toll of animals in PETA’s care has reached 21,339, including more than 2,000 pets last year. That’s not an animal charity. It’s a slaughterhouse.
I must have been mistaken. I thought this was a feed about running pens or live bait training. I didn't realize it was about PETA. Never cared for them and never will. Is PETA being used as a smoke screen to cover up the real problem we are talking about?
PETA and HSUS they all run in packs. They are the same except the name.
Anonymous,
The web sites you listed are not of a fox or coyote pen.
Wow, you rednecks make me laugh. I just love it how hunters cry the "poor meeeee, evil non-hunters misunderstand me--waaaa!" bull every time they realize that they're cornered. If we non-hunters (people who have morals) didn't know anything about this crap, we probably wouldn't be against it. I can't speak for all hunters or non-hunters, and I don't argue against hunting for FOOD, but who the hell eats coyotes and foxes?
A little tip to hunters: stop being so defensive and hypocritical. If you don't want people labeling you as stupid murdering rednecks, don't label people as ignorant PETA meanies.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU DON'T NEED TO TRY TO BAN OUR SPORT UNTIL YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED IT FIRST HAND!!!!!! SO TO ALL YOU PETA AND HSUS PEOPLE NEED TO QUIT GOING BY WHAT YOU SEE ON A WEBSITE THAT IS FROM ANOTHER STATE. STEP INSIDE THE WIRE AND SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES. UNTIL YOU GET IN THE PEN AND SEE FOR YOURSELF KEEP YOUR MOUTHS SHUT. AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE END OF STORY.
AND COMPASSION PLEASE I'M STILL WAITING FOR AN ANSWER!!!!!!
I think all the treehugers who say that what we do is wrong. Well let me tell you something what you say about my sport well your are a bunch of dang tree loven **** it think be for u open ur mouth and say something i think about it because if you never been to one you sould go and see what its like u bunch of sorry losers. And i think that thiss bill is a lot of damm bull shit
I think all the treehugers who say that what we do is wrong. Well let me tell you something what you say about my sport well your are a bunch of dang tree loven **** it think be for u open ur mouth and say something i think about it because if you never been to one you sould go and see what its like u bunch of sorry losers. And i think that thiss bill is a lot of damm bull shit
Very intelligent response, Tyler Everett. I take pride in not having to torture animals to death to raise my manhood. How can you even call yourself a hunter? Like someone else said; if you don't want people judging you, then don't judge people for being against you. And Anonymous (fox hunter): please spare the world and get a vasectomy. All of you hunters are such filthy hypocrites. You bitch and whine about us mean treehuggers labeling you, but you're the ones doing all of the labeling! Grow a pair, please.
Boy, you hunters sure are making yourselves look like real asses. Great idea. You're just hurting your "cause" and "sport" even more.
FRANK DONOVAN...is that a threat??? " I would like to come face to face with one of these cowards." I'm sure if YOU REALLY wanted to find one you know where to look. You are just another tough guy behind a computer. You have what I call "puter strength." Just curious, what would you do if you met one of us...tough guy.
And the rest of you negative, name-callers are showing how immature you really are as well.
PETA killed 95 percent of its adoptable pets in 2008, consumer group reports
According to public records from the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) euthanized 2,124 adoptable pets in its care last year, and placed only seven in adoptive homes. Since 1998, a total of 21,339 dogs and cats have been put down by PETA at its Norfolk, Va., headquarters. The records were obtained and publicized by the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF), which describes itself as a nonprofit coalition supported by restaurants, food companies and consumers.
CCF Research Director David Martosko said, “PETA hasn’t slowed down its hypocritical killing machine one bit, but it keeps browbeating the rest of society with a phony ‘animal rights’ message…since killing pets is A-OK with PETA, why should anyone listen to their demands about eating meat, using lab rats for medical research, or taking children to the circus?” CCF also asserted that, “Despite having a $32 million budget, PETA does not operate an adoption shelter (and makes) no discernible effort to find homes for the thousands of pets they kill every year.”
Can you morons find an argument besides PETA? Nobody has even brought up PETA except for the pathetic excuses who call themselves "hunters." Stay on topic and back your "sport" up with facts. All you're doing is making yourself and other hunters look like idiots (actually, that's not too hard for you to do).
Hey anonymous hipopotamus...all I can comprehend from your posts are blah, blah, blah....blah...blah blah...blah blah blah! You are the pathetic idiot who is scared to post your real name...keep hiding!!
So I tried to post this with the other poll and it wouldn't let me. So I am doing it here. I spent almost 2 hours with it last night. I am not even ashamed of putting my name or where I am from either.
I have spent the last 30 minutes reading all the comments that have been posted here. There are a few things that I want to say in response to what I have read:
1) For all those who are in favor of passing the 'penning' law, take a moment out of your busy day. The day that allows you to bring you unwelcomed nose into someone else's business. Go obtain you NC Hunting license and accompany us hunters into a pen. Bring your camera of any type. But, mind you, WITHOUT the license you will not be allowed to step foot inside the wired pen.
2) If you want to argue on the side of animals, that's ok. You are right. They have rights to. But not as many as these lawmakers are trying to give them. They are after all animals. When are we going to draw the line on who is the superior animal. Are you saying that a fox should have more rights than I? Ha.
3) Before you start to truly sit here and judge another's enjoyment, take a moment to experience it from their point of view. If this isn't an activity that you enjoy, don't partake in it. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT. I won't go into your home or your city and criticize your pastimes. I was raised better than that.
4) I will not repeat the statements that have already been made of how the pens and animals are taken care of. Its rather redundant, if you ask me. But I will say this. How can you say that a hammer is a very humane way for an animal to die. Do you not realize that in a pen foxes/coyotes are fed, vac, and taken care of year round. Do you know how many of said animals die during the dead of winter due to lack of food and shelter. It is sad when a fox/coyote is caught by a dog, I will give you that. But is it any sadder, or a better way to die when it is Mr. Good wrench that does the killing.
5) I live in the county. I do not own any farms or animals like that. But I do have a small child. I fear each day that one of our trips outdoors we might be attacked by a fox/coyote. I am very thankful for the local hunters who trap these animals. I am also glad that they are not killed but instead placed in an area where they care prosper better than they would in the natural element.
6) After reading all of the for this law posts. It seems that everyone assumes that these foxes/coyotes are being chased 24 hours-7 days a week-365 days a year by hundreds of dogs at a time. This is not the usual case. On average there are only 60-80 dogs at a hunt and they will only run for an average of 4-5 hours. There is plenty of down time.
7) Here is a novel idea. If you know of a pen that isn't maintaining with state regulations, REPORT THEM. Let's try that.
My closing remarks are. To our NC lawmakers: We have more pressing issues that 'penning.' Lets clean up our streets, create more jobs; and bring back the NC we use to have. I have been married now to a hunter and foxhunter for years now. He enjoys this way of life. Do not degrade those who enjoy this. Be educated before you criticize, and the local 6 o'clock news isn't the way.
to Anonymous (same person): how hypocritical can you hunters possibly get? My god, the only ones being at all reasonable and mature on this topic have been people against this wildlife fighting operation. And no, I am not afraid of you. Bigots don't scare me. Alisha, please don't lie to people who disagree with you. Most of us HAVE seen coyote pens. I have, and I can say that most of the people who claim to be "hunters" on here are lying to make themselves look somewhat moral.
Also, to Alisha Wilson: why don' t you try LEARNING something about coyotes? There has only been 1 recorded death by a coyote in North America, it was a little girl, and her family had been FEEDING the coyotes and let her play with them unsupervised. Senseless torture isn't helping anything. Go get your tubes tied.
HOW ABOUT POSTING YOUR REAL NAME?
My tubes are none of your concern. Nor to this topic. Leave them out. About about try and post your real name, instead of hiding behind Anonymous.
To: Anonymous (different person): I speak from personal experience. I am not lying. Trust me. If I was. I think I could come up with something a little more creative. Come on now.
I'm not "hiding." It surprises me that any of you have enough brains to know how to even use a computer.
To Alisha Wilson: I repeat, learn something about coyotes. And don't try to feed non-hunters this garbage about how wonderful fox/coyote pens are. Again, I've seen what happens in them. Go preach to someone gullible enough to listen to your ilk.
(sort of off topic) Neat. I posted almost at the same time as the other person did. xD
OK Anonymous (different person)...I have read enough of your hipocracy. How dare you get on here and say you are the reasonable and mature ones? Go to the top and read every single post and re-evaluate. I bet you will find 99% of the hunters post are very polite and tastefully written. I mean come on...just looking back at the last 20 posts you ANTI'S have been threatening people, calling them idiots, bigots, hicks, rednecks and dumb asses. Get a grip on your life. Do something worth fughting for. Go rescue the thousands of puppies and kittens PETA and HSUS KILLS every year. You obviously could care less... I dont come to your home and threaten and curse you for your chosen activities. Personally, I dont like playing tennis, sipping hot tea and gossiping about who is doing what. But, I dont go out in public and condemn the person who does. You dont like HUNTERS. I dont care! You dont like fox pens. I dont care! I could give a rats ass what you like or dislike but, you wont find me attacking you about it. Thats the difference between you and us. You want to impose your beliefs on us...it dont work that way! The Brave Men and Women of the U.S. Military gave me that option. Do something productive with your life and stay out of ours!!!
There is no excuse for coyote/fox penning. There really isn't. If you want to hunt, do it on FAIR grounds. Having your dogs maul them to death is not fair, especially if they are kept in fenced-in enclosures. I encourage all of the pro-hunters to stop pulling up PETA as an argument and find something credible to argue with. Idle threats and petty name-calling and ASSumptions are making you look like fools. If you want people to take you seriously, then you'd better start acting like an intelligent, mature person, and take responsibility for your own actions and words. This topic isn't about PETA or animal rights. It is about animal cruelty and a twist on dogfighting.
"Josh Brothers" it's hypocrisy, you ninny. Maybe you should start hunting spell checks. You need them.
Obviously, you do care, Josh Brothers, if you're putting so much effort into labeling me.
For the people who vote for the closing of pens do you even no anything about this....we are not out to kill the game....you dont want us on your land deer huntin we take our HERITAGE in a penned enclosure and yall still cant be satisfied...all we want to do is listen to our dogs run run so can yall please leave us alone. This has been around for HUNDREDS of years and i would like to keep it around for the next generations to enjoy. I have enjoyed listing to dogs run as long as i can remember.
I'd love it if all of the hunters would stop victimizing themselves. You don't need to trap coyotes and foxes and have your dogs torment them to enjoy hearing them or seeing them run. o_o Frankly, most of you just really need to have your heads tested.
Kudos to you if you recognized my nickname. Second: http://coyoteinfo.typepad.com/files/1jfqb_s3pao.wmv
Hahahaha..."ninny" thats the best you could come up with. My feelings are hurt.
Believe me, that's a compliment in your case.
-snickers- I'm quite enjoying myself. Reading all these comments from the hunters makes me feel so much more intelligent. I love trolls. . .they're just so darn adorable! ^_^
I just want to say this; you don't have to be for or against hunting, for or against PETA, HSUS or any other animal organization to see that this is wrong. I have family members who hunt, I eat meat, and I still think that this is unacceptable.
CeAnn....wow, I'm so glad you posted! I was so sorry to hear about Amber; her cause proves that some people really, really need lives.
I just found this comment on the other part of this site. I pasted it for you. Finally, a dog runner who is telling us the truth.
I live in Fairport, New York and prefer to put some lead into my yotes
(shoot 'em in the rear legs) to make sure they can't outrun my dogs. Once
they are down I let my dogs chew them up. There is no reward in the hunt if
my dogs can't chew on a live yote till he's dead. We chased one into a
shopping plaza in Rochester a few years back - that was embarrassing,
especially because I had already shot it in the rear legs, but it was still
able to make it into the shopping plaza and collapse in front of a store.
Damned press showed up and it was on the channel 10 news, I hope no one
noticed the blood and bullet holes in its rear legs!But you people are so
dumb that you will never catch me! I'll just say - oops! I missed and hit
it in the legs! I run my dogs on posted land and when someone complains I
just say "Oops! My dogs can't read posted signs!" You dummies fall for
it every time. We know that the more yotes we kill the faster the breed,
but we like to tell everyone that we men are "controlling the coyote
population" teehee... Yeah, we run them in the pens to train them, so
what? Yeah, we kill a few more than we are supposed too, but hey we paid
for it. That is why we pay our good money to run in the pens all summer. So
back off! It's our money, our coyotes we can do whatever we want with them!
You bunny huggers and holier than thou deer hunters don't know anything
about hunting! KC
if yall dont no nothin yalll are just a buch of people that aint never done it or been around is so its wrong i GARUNTEE i can find somthing yall do i dont agree with.
You know the coyotes ARE NOT HURT. im 12 and have BEN to these pens. Anyways if it was so "cruel" why i it on this earth?? GOD you know ITS THE SAME AS DEER HUNTING. Please understand this is FOR THE DOGS. we hunters HAVE REASONS so dont act like "I know what goes on" well atually you don't.
thank-you for your time,
s-dog
First, let me say I dont care what happens with "penning." Simply because I had nothing else to do, I read ALL THESE POSTS. What stands out is all the people against it will not post their real names, and seem to be childish name callers. Its also obvious they do not have any first hand knowledge of what really goes on. They keep referring to links in other states. The hunters keep repeating their defense for the pens over and over. They have stated over and over that is a tradition and the animals dont get hurt. I think some animals do get hurt.
Learn how to read, s-dog: I live in Fairport, New York and prefer to put some lead into my yotes (shoot 'em in the rear legs) to make sure they can't outrun my dogs. Once they are down I let my dogs chew them up. There is no reward in the hunt if my dogs can't chew on a live yote till he's dead. We chased one into a shopping plaza in Rochester a few years back - that was embarrassing, especially because I had already shot it in the rear legs, but it was still able to make it into the shopping plaza and collapse in front of a store. Damned press showed up and it was on the channel 10 news, I hope no one noticed the blood and bullet holes in its rear legs!But you people are so dumb that you will never catch me! I'll just say - oops! I missed and hit it in the legs! I run my dogs on posted land and when someone complains I just say "Oops! My dogs can't read posted signs!" You dummies fall for it every time. We know that the more yotes we kill the faster the breed, but we like to tell everyone that we men are "controlling the coyote population" teehee... Yeah, we run them in the pens to train them, so what? Yeah, we kill a few more than we are supposed too, but hey we paid for it. That is why we pay our good money to run in the pens all summer. So back off! It's our money, our coyotes we can do whatever we want with them! You bunny huggers and holier than thou deer hunters don't know anything about hunting! KC
Mama Coyote... he is obviously an "Outside Wolf Hunter." Which means he hunts these varmints outside in the wild. If you knew as much as you think you do, you would have picked that up by reading it. Not to mention, he is obviously in NY we are talking about NC and pens. Stay on subject.
Can any of these "hunters" spell worth a damn? They just get more and more illiterate by the post.
Can ALL of you gain some maturity? You are all, whether you are for or against this, making your side look worse. Really, resorting to petty name-calling? "treehugger" "redneck" "PETA" Whether you support this activity or not, at least have the balls to keep yourself under control.
None.
Thank you for your kind words for my beloved Amber. That was the worse night of my life. That person walked right up to her pen and when Amber jumped on her house to greet them, he shot her. We were able to save her life, but not her eye. What people do to coyotes and foxes in the name of sport is abusive and sick.
I'm going to make some popcorn and see if any of you start pulling each other's hair. Now THIS is entertaining! Certainly beats all that Twilight vs. Harry Potter crap.
I'm probably going to get bitched at for not saying my name, but I really don't care. The opinions of some....distastefully ignorant people really don't matter much to me. I'm actually smiling because I know, one way or another, this practice will end. Even if it does not end this day, this month, this year, or even longer, I know that it will end. And I look forward to seeing the "hunters'" worlds come crashing down on them. Give me some of that popcorn, Amused.
The following comments come from hunters who are appalled by this:
These are not ethical kills... As one wanting to hunt coyotes, if this is what it leads to, I'll stick with target shooting...
As an avid dog breeder for many years, I'd be leary allowing these hunting dogs around my grandkids. As a group, they're no better than a bunch of coyotes but a coyote does it for food to live. These dogs are doing for the blood sport with owners laughing and encouraging it... The hunters laughter and inability to understand animal suffering is what bothers me.
I'm sure they shoot the coyote to just render it unable to run and then the beasty boys pound on it...
I have to say that if I ever encounter such a scene, I will shoot the coyote right away to end its misery immediately..
I don't want my kids or grandkids thinking I approve of this type of hunting...
hunting yotes with dogs is wrong. I call and do fine, these cowards have to use dogs. I am against it.
How is this any different than dog fighting? This is just inhumane and barbaric as dog fighting, the only difference is there is no gambling or drugs present. These redneck hillbillies should have the same thing done to them so they can see how much pain is inflicted on these animals.
How humanely are these "hunting" dogs treated as well? I am sure there is abuse and neglect going on with these dogs. These guys use their dogs to do the hunting because they are so fat and lazy that they could not shoot a gun properly. How can anyone think that this is a humane "sport" when the hunted animal is fighting for it's life and is crying out in obvious pain?? This is not even a sport. A sport has two willing participants involved and I don't think the coyote is a willing participant. So stop calling hunting a sport because it is the furthest thing from a sport.
Hunting with dogs like that is not sport. I have been a hunter and trapper for 35 years and always made sure that the kill was quick and humane.I went out on a few occasions with the yote hunters and hounds last year and you are right about them hitting the yotes in the legs to slow them down for the dogs. I was disgusted, that is not fair chase. these guys are depraved and not good hunters.I took some pics too (see url- use whatever you want)and sent over some quotes from these losers too i got from a list. I hope DEC takes their licesnes away. they aren't respectable hunters at all. they give hunting a bad name and no one i know wants to be associated with them. its about time someone showed what they do. Thank you guys at the Yote Institute!
Absolutely disgusting - what cowards those unethical jerks are. What happened to making a quick and humane kill. The guys who use the dogs to chase and kill coyotes give hunters a big black eye. We ETHICAL Hunters have a hard enough time without asssholes like these hound hunters making all hunters look bad. Thank you for all of the great information on this site Eastern Coyote Institute!
Horrible. Who gives these guys licenses?
Here are some more varied responses, from hunters to non-hunters.
We had hunters come to our sheep farm a few times and ask if coyotes were bothering us because they would take care of our problem. We have always used herd dogs to protect our sheep and have never lost a single lamb or ewe to coyotes or even dogs. We also know about coyotes breeding faster when some are killed in an area. My wife told them to get the hell off our land. Twice we have caught them on our property since anyway. These guys have no respect for private property and certainly no respect for life. They are little spoilt boys who need to do some growing up! We are watching much closer now and will call DEC next time
This is disgusting and actually sick. Ever notice that 99.999% of "hunters" are men? What is it that they enjoy so much - the adrenaline? the sadism of seeing a helpless animal terrified and being torn to shreds by dogs? Does their quest for approval and applause from other men bolster, in their minds, their egos so much that they see atrocity as "sport." Did you notice the exclamation "Hunting opportunities are year around!" in Maine? Don't you think that is the real reason for the "coyote as imminent threat" misinformation campaign?
And finally, in addition to the indefensible cruelty (add to this the torture of trapping) involved in their "sport" IS THE FACT THAT PREDATOR POPULATIONS ADJUST TO THE AMOUNT OF PREY AVAILABLE. IF X NUMBER OF COYOTES ARE KILLED, MORE PUPS WILL BE PRODUCED UNTIL THE COYOTE POPULATION IS BACK IN BALANCE WITH THE PREY SPECIES. Perhaps that's what these "hunters" want - then they will have a new generation of coyotes to ensure their "sport," while their purported aim of controlling the coyote populations is never truly met. "Oh boy, I can go out with my dogs and terrorize and shred a new batch of coyotes next year!" The same claims, with absolutely no more validity, is used to brutally "hunt" and trap foxes.
I agree with hunting them and trapping to some extent. It depends on what kind of trap you use. One that causes physical pain but does not kill the animal immediately, hell no. It doesn't deserve suffering.
The video made me want to cry. I mean, there was a person videotaping. If he had hunting hounds, then he most likely had a gun. Instead of being some sick, twisted ... idiot, and videotaping your hounds mauling a coyote that is still alive and suffering, SHOOT IT.
The people who went on that hunt are obviously twisted and insane.
I'm in tears.
Dogs are NOT meant to do that.
There are so many things I want to call people who enjoy seeing and inflicting pain on other people and animals.
They don't deserve to be called people; they don't even deserve names.
THESE ARE COMMENTS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM THOSE WHO PARTICIPATE IN COYOTE PEN OPERATIONS
Brent Steele who said: "I kill them any way I can. I could care less about them."
http://nitro.20m.com/Hunting%20from%20the%20Past2.html [take a look at the cruel captions on the pictures--this man clearly knows that he is causing pain to the coyotes, and enjoys seeing them suffer; would you trust this guy with your kids?]
And, clearly, this guy cares about his dogs (sarcams): "I hunt hounds that can get the job done and like to back that up with pics of just that. I don't believe in hunting a hound that won't finish the job it starts. If my hounds catch a coyote they better either have it killed or trying to kill it when I get there and it shouldn't take a gun to catch and kill a coyote. If my coon hounds tree there had better be eyes looking at me when I walk to the tree. When I go fishing I don't want to tell about the one that got away, but the one I have in the boat. I don't tolerate a hound that doesn't bark, runs trash, or won't handle. Hounds are supposed to hunt for the hunter and can do so with proper training."
80% of violent sociopaths abused animals;
36% of sexual predators,
48% of convicted rapists, and
30% of convicted child molesters reported a history of abusing animals,
80% of domestic violence victims report that their batterer is also violent toward their animals,
71% of battered women reported being forced to watch violence being inflicted on their pets.
Has anyone noticed that almost all, if not all, of the hunters have invited the ones who are against the penning to come to a pen and witness what goes on first hand. As a college student I would see an article in the news or on TV about something that I was majoring in. I knew from studying and my own research that what I was being told just wasn't true. Believe it or not, there are lots of articles in the news or on tv that just aren't factual, and the american public is either so ignorant to believe it's set in stone because it was on tv or too lazy to do their own research to get the facts. Well that invitation to come to the pen is the chance for the anti-penners to go see first hand what goes on in a fox pen, but either they are too lazy to go see what goes on or ignorant enough to believe what someone else might tell them. Whatever the reason is I find it hard to believe or support someone who, themselves, believe in something so much yet are so close minded to form an opinion about something they know nothing about. KEEP THE PENS OPEN and find a cause worthwile to attack...heaven knows there are enough of them nowadays.
and dark lord, or whatever it is,,,what the hell do the percentages actually mean to you or anyone else interested in this topic?? of the 80% how many run dogs in a fox pen. i could probably wager my life on 0. how about try to relate something to the subject instead of rambling about something you read in yesterdays newspaper
Use thee thing in your head that should be a brain, andy daniel. I was making a reference to the fact that people who torture animals often kill or torture people. Common sense apparently isn't that common.
Why do you hunters bother to keep on insisting that people who BACK THEIR STATEMENTS UP don't know what they're talking about? I *have* visited the pens. I DO know what goes on. Which is exactly WHY I will not rest until you nefarious savages get what you deserve.
C'mon. Where's the hair pulling? It's gotta come up soon. This sure beats Twilight.
http://allfunny.net/pics2/internet-duty.png
if all yall oppose this so much and think all fox hunters are stupid why don't you show up at a fox pen during a field trial and do something about it. GET BIG AND SHOW YOUR FACES!!!
And reduce ourselves to your level? Please. We're above you.
dark lord that a hell of a name if you where THE DARK LORD YOU WOULD BE BURNING IN HELL , AND THE DARK LORD HURTS PEOPLE and has no feeling or compassion for a human and if he does not like a human why would he care about a coyote . And as every one that has read their BIBLE knows that dark lord SATIN HAS NEVER TOLD THE TRUTH SO I GUESS ALL BS YOU SAILD WOULD BE A LIE TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OMFG you guys are funny! @ Amused: you rock.
Apparently common sense really IS dead. Of course the Dark Lord isn't my real name. Don't ever have children. There are enough idiots running around as it is. -chuckles- Satin. Did you know that Satin plans on taking over the world by building an army of cotton and wool?
I'm a Satanist and I'm against senseless and unjustified murder. Go figure. Then again, Christians have always been violent & hypocritical little buggers.
MAMa yote I have nothing to hide. No gambling, bring on the cops if you like.I have nothing to HIDE..I HATE everything YOU and the anonymous cowards stand for. EVEN if you would trip and fall on a GOOD talking point on fox pens, NO ONE would listen ,cause of your radical statements. Some of us take our sport seriously. I dont how many times we run in the same circle about fox pens and getting NOWERE, cause you guys have NO FACTS and are CLUELESS.Be it fox pens or LIFE.. BUT, just cause you put a coyote in a cage and give him a cute lil name, that does not make you better than me. YOU radicals will LOSE this fight , like you lost every other battle you have ever fought. CAUSE YOU HAVE NO BACK BONE. Call me a non sportsman all you want, but I have a hobby that EFFECTS not 1 of you people. AND I AM PROUD of who I am AND WHAT I DO. And sleep just find. DARK LORD, you are a Idiot!!!. HANDS DOWN. DOG FIGHTING , are you serious? The higher you climb the poll, the more you show you ass. You want us to get off of PETA, that thats all we can talk about, well atleast we have FACTS on what we say ABOUT THEM. And not from some ECO TERROREST websites, where you get your info from. Call me what ever you want ,sad est, non sportsman, redneck, ignorant, I DONT CARE. Not one of you could last 5 seconds with me in a Debate where you have to present FACTs. This is North Carolina ,NOT KANSAS, NOT INDIANA, NOT NEW YORK, NOT IOWA, or any other place they yote hunt on the outside. You have NEVER BEEN to NC. THERE IS A BIG Difference. Now for all you lil spineless cowards from NC, who dont post their names, YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN OUT OF THE CITY LONG ENOUGH TO EVEN HAVE A POSSABLE GOOD POINT TO MAKE. So go back to your pot smoking, drum circles and talk about all the BABYs you are in favor of killing in the name of WOMENS RIGHT TO CHOOSE. No blood sport there
"and has no feeling or compassion for a human and if he does not like a human why would he care about a coyote " because humans taste loads better. Mmmm....dumbass burgers.
Jerry Thomas, do you need a nappy?
Naw. He needs a spell checker. And a brain. Maybe the Satanist can conjure up one for him.
Jerry Thomas, people have provided TONS of links and direct quotes. I think you should pick up some reading skills.
OH YES I AM THE ECONOMY PLEASE SHUT DOWN THE FOX PEN THAT WAY THE FOX HUNTER WILL QUITE BUYING TRUCK AND SPENDING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON DOG FOOD IN A YEAR . GET REAL THIS IS WHY WE CAME TO THE US THAT WAY WE DID NOT HAVE TO BE TOLD WHAT WE COULD DO . IF YOU DO NOT LIKE FOX HUNTERS MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tell you what, Jerry Thomas. You get a brain, a penis, and some balls, maybe a soul or two, and maybe we'll take you seriously. And for all of the prats who keep asking people to visit the coyote pens....why don't you visit some of the coyote and fox rescues and see for yoruself the damage that has been done by your "sport?"
amused, i guess in this day in time nobody knows the value of a face to face conversation. you all just want to hide behind your computer screens and fault everyone who does not live like you. you people think you are better than us? MR. EVERETT has been waiting for an answer to some very valid questions for quite some time now and MRS. COMPASSION PLEASE has not responded. the only reason i can think of is that he has beat her at her own game. YOU PEOPLE AREN'T BETTER THAN US YOU ARE PATHETIC COWARDS THAT ARE TOO SCARED TO MEET FACE TO FACE. WHY ARE YALL SO SCARED TO TALK IN PERSON??
amused, i guess in this day in time nobody knows the value of a face to face conversation. you all just want to hide behind your computer screens and fault everyone who does not live like you. you people think you are better than us? MR. EVERETT has been waiting for an answer to some very valid questions for quite some time now and MRS. COMPASSION PLEASE has not responded. the only reason i can think of is that he has beat her at her own game. YOU PEOPLE AREN'T BETTER THAN US YOU ARE PATHETIC COWARDS THAT ARE TOO SCARED TO MEET FACE TO FACE. WHY ARE YALL SO SCARED TO TALK IN PERSON??
Uh...as compared to YOU? And here I thought you guys couldn't get any more hypocritical than this.
And maybe Ms. Compassion Please has a life, and that's why she doesn't need to baby you and your drunked hooligan buddies?
If you're not scared, then you sure are a horrible actor.
so now we're all alcoholics? you people sicken me.
the "real" dark lord what you you do to a coyote that bit you child or killed your dog
what do you think would happen if one of us walked into the raleigh hsus office and offered to show them a fox pen? do you think they would blow the guy off like the rest of you on this site?
Dumbfuck, people from the HSUS HAVE visited fox pens. -.-
bout one more dumbfuck and i'm gonna beat your damn ass into a hole in the ground.
get real: I don't have a dog and I hate kids. In fact, I'd love it if some coyotes could take away my neighbor's brats. And, if you knew anything besides how to troll, you'd know that coyotes very rarely attack humans. Someone else stated that there has only been 1 recorded death by a coyote. Go back to kindergarten.
The news in Arizona has been filling up with so many stories of coyote attacks over the course of the last couple of years that it's threatening to drop from the news because these attacks have nearly become a daily occurrence. One of the recent stories involved a dog
named Lexy (yes, after the car). Lexy was being taken for a walk by its owner in a well-to-do residential area of Phoenix, when out of the blue, Lexy found itself in the grasp of a coyote and fighting for its life. Thankfully, Lexy's owner had Lexy on a leash and was able to pull Lexy away from coyote while threatening the coyote at the same time. Lexy survived the encounter in tact, if not battle scarred.
Due to repeated complaints to the Arizona Game and Fish Department, a public meeting will be held to assuage pet owners, but officials have already gone to the media to prepare the public that they may NOT LIKE what Game and Fish has to say, And the only thing that the Game and Fish can do is hunt them!
5/8/8 Lake Arrowhead, CA Coyote Drags Toddler From Front Yard. Animal Releases 2-Year-Old Girl When Mom Appears; 3rd Incident In 5 Days. A coyote grabbed a 2-year-old girl by the head and tried to drag her from the front yard of her mountain home in the third incident of a coyote threatening a small child in Southern California in five days, authorities said. The coyote attacked the girl around noon Tuesday when her mother, Melissa Rowley, went inside the home for a moment to put away a camera, the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department said in an incident report. Rowley came out of the house and saw the coyote dragging her daughter toward a street. She ran toward her daughter, and the animal released the girl and ran away, said sheriff's spokeswoman Arden Wiltshire. ---snip--- Full article here. Another article here. Video here. 5/2/8 Chino Hills, CA. A nanny pulled a 2-year-old girl from the jaws of a coyote Friday when the animal attacked the toddler and tried to carry her away in its mouth, officials said. The girl was playing in a sandbox at Alterra Park in Chino Hills in San Bernardino County. Around 10:30 a.m., the caretaker heard screaming and saw a coyote trying to carry the child off in its mouth, officials said. The babysitter grabbed the child and pulled her from the coyote's grasp, the sheriff's department said in a statement. The coyote then ran off into nearby brush. The child suffered wounds to her buttocks and was taken to Chino Valley Medical Center and was later released, director of nursing Anne Marie Robertson said. She was later transported to Loma Linda University Medical Center to receive the rabies vaccine. ---snip--- Read news article here. 12/24/7 Erie, CO --- Woman bitten, two dogs dead after coyote attack. On Christmas Eve, Janice Shattuck and her family had to have their dog "Lola," a 3-year-old Maltese, euphemized. Earlier in the morning, another of their dogs "Eddie," a 9-year-old Jack Russell Terrier/Shih Tzu mix, died after being attacked by coyotes. "To have this loss on Christmas Eve, it's a staggering loss. I know that may sound ridiculous, but we care so much for our dogs. It's terrible," said John Shattuck. The dogs were attacked Sunday. Janice Shattuck let two of the family's four dogs into the yard. Within minutes she heard a commotion outside and ran out to see what was happening. When she got out to the back yard she saw four coyotes, two were inside the fence. Both of her dogs were in the jaws of the coyotes. She started swinging and kicking at the coyotes hoping to free her pets. She managed to free Lola, but the coyotes dragged Eddie away. ---snip--- Read the story Here. 12/12/7 Canmore, Alberta -- Coyotes test negative for rabies after attacking 3 children. Three coyotes have tested negative for rabies after three children were attacked last week in southern Alberta. Fish and Wildlife officers caught and tested the animals after three children were attacked in Canmore, Alta., which is about 100 kilometers west of Calgary. "Parents will probably feel relieved," said Tanya Stahl, whose four-year-old son Ethan was attacked at the town's busy Skate with Santa event Dec. 12. The coyote first bit another 10-year-old boy on the leg. Skaters scared the animal away, but it returned and bit Ethan's jacket, said Stahl. ....snip.... Read the story Here. 7/3/7 Frankfort, Indiana -- Pit bull ailing after coyote attack. Peanut, a 1-year-old pit bull, is recovering after being attacked by a pack of coyotes Sunday afternoon. Janelle Burgin said her dog was running loose near her rural Frankfort home when she heard him squeal and knew something was wrong. He was bitten all over his hind end, had claw marks on his side and bites on his head and neck. "If we hadn't got out there, he wouldn't have stood a chance," Burgin said. When she saw the coyotes near the woods, she ran into the house to get her brother. ....snip.... Read the story here. (These have to be tough coyotes to take on
not scared; take your best shot. I will let my police dogs and gun collection answer the door for you.
the real dark lord, i got somethin for your monkey ass too. i wish a coyote would bite you in your ballbag. you are about as useful as a condom with a vent hole.
DARK LORD DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU LOOK LIKE A IDIOT
1/10/06 Asheville, NC Coyote attacks spur rabies scare. Animal control officers captured a coyote they think attacked three people Monday, had it killed and sent a sample of its brain to a state laboratory in Raleigh to be tested for rabies. A coyote bit landscape worker Richard Zerbe on the nose while he and colleague Eric Parsons worked at a Lakewood Drive home in Kenilworth. “It kept attacking,” said Parsons, who was blowing leaves when the incident began. Police and health officials want people who may have been exposed to the animal to contact their health care provider or, if a pet was exposed, their veterinarian. Laura Dintsch said a coyote attacked her black Labrador at her South Beaumont Street home early Monday morning. “If someone is exposed to rabies, they need to have a medical evaluation,” said Sue Ellen Morrison, disease control manager with the Buncombe County Health Center. Treatment generally involves an injection around the bite wound and a series of five vaccinations administered over 28 days, she said.
Are you seriously trying to sound tough? My sister's bunny collection is more intimidating than you.
thank you real dark lord. Cool name, btw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3neAfxLvZNE
I HATE DUMB ASS RED NECKS HOW MUCH DID YOU PAY FOR THE POLICE DOG
I KNOW YOU ARE NOT A REAL COP BECAUSE YOU SEAM TO BE A RACIEST
Did you know that there is only one human death attributed to a coyote attack in recorded history? Compare to the 15 - 20 deaths per year attributed to domestic dog attacks. Coyote bites that require hospitalization are extremely rare and only about 20-30 in recorded history. Compare this to the roughly 1,000 domestic dog bites per day treated in USA emergency rooms! Coyote attacks are clearly not a threat- but domestic dog attacks ARE. The one human death as well as most of the attacks were caused by people knowingly feeding coyotes. The moral here? Don't feed the coyotes.
I probably paid more on each of them than you have on your whole hut. And stop raping your caps lock.
HOW MANY DUMB PPL COULD TELL YOU WHAT A COYOTE LOOKED LIKE THEY WOULD SAY A DOG AND GUESS WHAT THEY DONT WANT TO SCARE PPL AND IT A LOT EASIER TO SAY DOG AND NOT SCAR THE WORLD SO LETS TRY AGAIN
yes where did you steal the money
Seriously. stop with the caps-lock raping. Learn how to type.
when will this bill even be voted on?
Wow. You must really not have a life. I actually feel very, very sorry for you.
Can you guys just stop with the inuslts and death threats? My god, I never thought people could be this immature.
*insults
I hve hunted for food, and I have to say this; you disgust me. not just because of the fact that you have your dogs harass coyotes and foxes, but because none of you can even have a debate without threatening people and harassing them. You give the rest of us a bad name. I'm tempted to join PETA now just because of it. NOTE: that was a joke. (the PETA part)
i hunt fox outside the pen w/ my lurcher. i use a lurcher BECAUSE he kills. if i just wanted to chase them w/o killing i'd use foxhounds. I don't run inside the pen AT ALL (even though it would be a handy training tool) because kill dogs are prohibited and the owners of dogs that kill the fox are "fined" by the pen owner (at least at the pens i've been invited to). i don't fault them for that it's just good business. it cuts down overhead if your fox or coyote can run over & over w/o getting caught.
it's so funny how people will believe the most ridiculous lies because it fits their predetermined view of a particular activity. yes there is a correlation between spousal abuse, rape, serial killing & the torture of animals. however there is no such correlation between such actions & lawful hunting. in fact the very limited polling & research done indicates that lawful (licensed) hunters are more likely than any other demographic group to make charitable contributions, obey the law, and inform on peers violating the law. hunters have provided over 95% of the funds for both public & private conservation of wildlife & habitat. sport hunters (like those who run in the pen) also forced congress to enact laws prohibiting market hunting (which is what almost extincted so many species).
OTH urban/suburban animal rights whackos w/ their well intentioned ignorance voted to ban lion hunting in CA over a decade ago. aince that time CA has had more fatal lion attacks than all lion hunting states combined in the last century and state contracted hunters have had to kill more lions every year than were taken by sport hunters paying for the priviledge. WA & OR followed CAs lead and have experienced the exact same problem of lions targeting people and having to kill more nuisances than were taken under license. two PETA employees were convicted of criminal acts associated with the killing & illegal dumping of puppies, kittens, dogs & cats in NC. they are responsible for the destruction of medical labs whose research provided or could have provided lifesaving knowledge for millions of people. they have engaged in arson, assault & other acts of violence & terror. they have subsidised the manufacture of audio & video material depicting horrific acts of animal cruelty including engaging in horrific acts of animal cruelty themselves in order to create the appearance of truth in their willful lies. specific cases being the video taped maltreatment of animals at slaughter houses & the live skinning of dogs & cats sold as food in foreign markets.
"ye shall know them by their fruits"
the fruits of sport hunters have been life & abundance & the protection of habitat & the institutionalization of a sense of fairplay for wildlife.
the fruits of animal rightists have been death, lies, violence & opression.
Is there a SINGLE hunter on this whole site that can spell?
Nope.
dave: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b98/horsehater/deadhorse1.jpg
This is what I'd like to do to some of you "hunters": http://www.flash-game.net/game/2092/pika.html
yes it should be banned.
Whoever said this was a genius: "It is my personal belief that when the last human has fallen, and the last skull lies on the irradiated earth, a coyote will come trotting out of some safe place. Don't ask me where he'll come from; but I believe that he will survive as he has always survived. The coyote will trot in his furtive, skulking manner, to the skull. He will approach it carefully with the caution borne of millenia of avoiding steel traps and snares and pitfall. He will cautiously sniff it. His educated nose will tell him that he no longer has anything to fear from the bleached remnant of a once great civilization. Taking a few short steps to get in the exact position, he will lift his leg."
http://www.coyoterescue.com/wildlifemanagement.html
Haha, it figures that half the people responding to this topic are all homophobic, religiously intolerant, sexist nutjobs. Before bitching about how horrible and mean "anti's" are, (and I quote someone who posted earlier--name escapes me), grow a pair. The only people who have been bringing up PETA and animal rights on here have been the hunters. The lack of maturity, on all sides, (though mostly on the hunters' sides) is atrocious, and that is putting it mildly. Threats of violence and/or death? Do you know that you could be arrested these days for threatening to assault/kill someone? From what I can tell, most of the people who are acting like idiots are the radical hunters. The non-hunters have posted links and articles that support their case. And the hunters conveniently seem to overlook them, or insist that everyone who disagrees with them is just a stupid treehugger. From what I've seen right now, you guys have just confirmed that the human race is DEFINITELY doomed. I can rest easy knowing the coyotes, wolves, bobcats, and other animals that have been persecuted will be pissing on our graves. Whether you are a hunter or not, tolerance won't kill you. Stupidity will.
And another thing I find amusing: this argument that thousands of dogs will be put down if coyote pens are banned. Where you on some sort of drug when you made that argument? First off, the only one who would be responsible for their euthanasia is the owner his/herself. Second...you would actually put to death a dog, a relatively healthy dog, because you can't use it to torment live animals? If that's the attitude you have toward dogs, then don't have them. You clearly don't care about the dogs themselves at all. Those dogs do not HAVE TO maim coyotes and foxes to survive. If pens were illegal, you could still keep them. That logic doesn't hold up, and just serves to show that you don't care about any animals at all, even your own. There are plenty of activities you can use to stimulate your dog's mind and body that don't require the harassment and mauling of another being.
So, to all you dogfighters (frankly, you don't deserve to be called a hunter; I'd much rather call you something else, but I, unlike many of you, am capable of holding an intelligent discussion) who like to cry and whine about being persecuted, get a clue. And if you want to try to intimidate or harass me, I'll tell you right now, I'm a hell of a lot meaner than any coyote or fox you'll ever face. I have some very powerful forces backing me up, and I would never hesitate to use them. I treat people exactly how they treat me. You want to try and treat me like garbage? You won't get away with it. Unlike the more submissive non-hunters on here, I don't back down, and I don't quit. I know why so many of you are resorting to such childish antics and vulgarity; you're afraid. We're a threat to you. You know that even if it doesn't happen right away, justice will win. Civility will triumph over brutality. We. Will. Win.
-claps- Finally, a voice of reason in this group, instead of someone who's just all "waaa!!11!11! those meen ppl r out 2 get mi!"
My advice to everyone on all sides: unless you have something useful, mature, or helpful to add to this discussion, get your head out of your ass and go do make something of yourself. This situation hs gotten seriously out of hand.
Amused: Telling people to get their heads out of their asses will probably just provoke them even more. After all, we've probably all heard of the phrase "don't feed the trolls." :P
Here is the real story on the Lake Arrowhead attacks. I called out there and talked to their DNR person in charge.
1 The story about the sand box.
There were signs all over that area telling people to be aware of coyotes because they had been seen in the area. Still, people would see the coyote and feed it! The nanny had left the child unsupervised in the sand box while she went to a car to talk to friends. She heard the child cry out, turned to see a coyote holding the child down by the arm. When the nanny ran toward the child, the coyote let go. The coyote was not dragging the child anywhere. Yes, the child had to have stitches. Do not feed wild coyotes, bears or mountain lions. This is not rocket science.
2 A mother had seen a coyote hanging around her driveway. She started feeding it every once in a while. She thought it would be cool to take her 18 month old child out in the driveway, sit with the child to watch and take pictures of the coyote. The coyote hung around to have his picture taken, because he thought he was going to get food. Now, this idiot Mom decides she wants to put her camera in the house, so she leaves her baby with the coyote to go put her camera away. The coyote attaked! Again, as soon as the baby cried and the mother came running out of the house, the coyote let go. He was not dragging the baby anywhere. The child had to have 15 stitches in it's head. Do not feed coyotes, bears and mountain lions!
These two attacks happened in spite of all the education that California has done to try to protect people.
I don't know of a third attack. The person that I talked to didn't either. He said he thought they added one just to make the stories better.
3 In 1986, a child was killed by a coyote somewhere in California. A coyote had been hanging around a home. The people were feeding it. One day, the mother left the child out in the yard with a fried chicken leg. The "nice doggie", which is what they had been calling the coyote, wanted the chicken leg, the child didn't want to give it up. The coyote attaked and killed the child.
Do not feed coyotes, bears or mountain lions!
This comes from a speech I wrote for a paper, and I think it could easily apply to this topic as well. So, here goes: I ask that everyone keeps an open mind and only responds in a mature and thoughtful manner.
I was thinking today about what evil really is in this world. This was inspired by a conversation Raistlin Majere had with Crysania in the book Dragonlance: Test of the Twins. Crysania, a highly religious and judgmental individual, attempted to tell Raistlin that he was evil, based off of his choice of magic (he wore the Black Robes). Raistlin countered her argument by explaining that the evils of their world did not come from him at all and showed her the streets of Palanthas, areas where homeless people struggled to survive.
And although this book and its characters are fictional, it really got me thinking.
Most people today think of evil as anything related to magic. Or different views in general. (Ex: omg! u dont luv twilight! DIE!!!1111!!!!11!). Not to turn this into a strictly political or religious topic (and don't, I beg you, turn it into this either; I'm not in the mood for it), but people have a tendency to assume that everyone who isn't a complete clone of them is a terrible fiend damned to the pits of Hell/Hades, etc.
Everyone is guilty of this; obviously, we all believe our opinions are right. Otherwise we wouldn't have those opinions. However, I believe that if it's not hurting anyone, why go out of your way to stop it? And if it IS hurting someone, why choose to overlook it? Why not fight for justice?
Take a walk down a busy city street. Forget about the rights of homosexual couples, religious or racial minorities, etc. Instead, take a good look around. I can guarantee you that you will find at least 1 person or animal that is desperate and calling out for help.
True evil in this world does not come from magic, from different interpretations of a spirituality, or from two men or women getting married.
True evil is about knowing that someone else is suffering, and choosing to ignore it.
Nobody is perfect. I certainly am far from it. But it doesn't take a perfect person to know right from wrong.
if they make fox pens illegal i can promise you i will still run. what's going to happen? they gonna give me a ticket? and what are you antis going to do? i sure don't expect you to leave your gated comunities and come stop us from running.
Here is what will happen. The pens will close. The incentive to keep them open will be gone. (money) The DNR will not issue permits. Buying live coyotes to stock the pens will cease. Whenever our precious wildlife is used for the making of money, things go crazy. Our wildlife belongs to all of the people and should not be allowed to be sold. Especially, not sold for live bait dog training.
i think that it is very importain to have these pens it keeps people from running them in the wild where they run all over everyones land and get everyone pissed off it is something that hunters have done for decades in alot of different countries it is crap that this day and age people like the ones that voted to shut pen running down need to mind there own and worry about there own problums
Those links with the coyotes are hunters outside the wire.That's what they went thier to do kill a coyote.If that's they want to do then that's thier bussiness.Those boy's in a preserve are not thier to kill they are thier to scrore pionts and win.If a dog spends time killing a coyote that's time he's not getting scrored.Thats why them boy's do every thing they can not to catch one.As for they guy who said he shoots a coyete to slow him down is a idiot unless it was a anti trying to paint a bad picture and then he's still an idiot.At a field trial thier's 60 to as much as a couple hundred dogs casted.Ok here's the thing i don't understand.The public is lead to believe that all of these dog's are running one coyote and that's just not true.There will be many different pack's running but never all that's casted running one coyote.Leave them boy's alone you do your thing and they'll do there's.
CeAnn
could you send me an email to randall@silvertabkennels.com
I would like to talk to you about something off-topic
The profanity and lack of posting a name behind any post is not what I'd call a classy way of handling things.The agricultural segment of not only NC but country wide has been had wrecked havoc on livestock bt ruthless killing coyotes and what is not killed is often maimed.As a result the state of NC has an Open Kill season on coyotes due to great losses some so bad that some families went into bankruptcy.Their are other states that have suffered such great losses not only in agriculture that have bounties.Some governments in other countries provide poisioning programs because of the great losses.What's more important feeding the children of America or a ruthless absolute worthless killer of innocent penned livestock who have no innate protection mechanism.Should be a no brainer I'd think.Thank God the NC Wildlife Commission has been appointed to be in charge of this issue and has decalared an open season there have been to many farms already lost-again a no brainer.
Among most of the other misinformation being spewed by the coyote hunters, they are trying to demonize coyotes by tellling as many people as they can that coyotes eat many cats. This is the diet that coyotes eat, done by a study in Chicago where 1429 coyote scats were examined. :
42% small rodents
22% White tailed deer (most likely scavanged or wounded already)
23% fruit
18% Eastern Cottontail
13% bird species
8% raccoon
6% grass
4% Invertebrates
2% Human associated
1% muskrat
1% domestic cat
1% unknown
Learn the real facts, don't listen to the hunters who want to be hailed as heros for killing them.
Coyote attacks? There are a whole lot more attacks By people on coyotes than attacks ON people by coyotes. Go look up the statistics on domestic dog bites on humans. 1000 a day that need medical treatment- most of those children bitten in the face BY DOMESTIC DOGS. Look at all of the children hurt and killed by human predators. Don't demonize the coyotes- point the fingers where they should be pointed. Training those hunting dogs to kill is also setting the stage for a tragedy involving a child or beloved pet. I saw the pictures and videos on coyoteinstitute.typepad.com and can't believe that the guys who do this to our wildlife can even call themseves men. They are cowards and sadists. Who would want people like this around their children or even their animals? Heck, 99% of them can't even spell or use proper English. Ban the disgusting blood sports of coyote hunting, fox hunting and running pens. EVOLVE!
Mike why has it been on wral tv reported in subdivisions where people dogs and cats have been killed in their yard by coyotes,The tv reporters have no reason or motive I don't hunt and in fact wished it was banned.I had no problem with coyotes until my little boys miniature daschund was killed right here in our subdivision yard by coyotes inluding father in laws calves who has a farm.Your information I question.Maybe they can pack these d--- coyotes and put them in your back yard since you love them so much- get in touch with AMERICA.& I applaud the State of NC for having an Open Season on these canine KILLERS from h--.
There are foxhunters and there are foxchasers. I would consider myself of the latter class. I enjoy listening to my hounds running, whether it be on a deer, rabbit, fox, or coyote; inside and outside of a pen. Most of the time, I don't even carry a firearm with me to deer or rabbit hunt. I just like to listen to the dogs. I like the larger pens, where I can take my deer and rabbit dogs and let them run in the off-season, without fear of them being run over. They are not trained to catch, only to trail and chase. I have never caught any game, with the exception of an injured doe on the outside a few years ago. Even then I leashed my dogs, took them back to the truck, and put the deer down, and disposed of the carcass properly. Before you put everyone who has dogs and hunts into the same classification, stop and choose your words carefully. I realize that there are extremist views on both sides. While I am pro-hunting and pro-pennning, I can understand the views of SOME antis.
Mrs. Atwood, These coyote and fox that get put in the HOLDING PEN before they turned loose are taking better care of than you take care of yourself. These coyotes and fox get better feed than some dogs get. SO its ok if the if the PETA put down just about every cat or dog they get. Field trials have done so so much for PEOPLE in need even people that dont even hunt. Raising money to help with medical bills or raising money 4 people who are dying or raising it for relay fo life.
Mrs. Atwood, These coyote and fox that get put in the HOLDING PEN before they turned loose are taking better care of than you take care of yourself. These coyotes and fox get better feed than some dogs get. SO its ok if the if the PETA put down just about every cat or dog they get. Field trials have done so so much for PEOPLE in need even people that dont even hunt. Raising money to help with medical bills or raising money 4 people who are dying or raising it for relay fo life.
John
That was a little contradictory. How can you wish hunting was banned, but applaud the open season on coyotes at the same time. Or was your view on hunting to be banned changed when your son's dog was killed. Not trying to step on toes, just trying to see where you stand.
MikeMD thanks for the statistic.*The only problem is this study states that it was done in Chicago.Our obswervations here in rural NC have shown economic loss to livestock farmers that is why the NCWRC has an Open Season kill at any time policy.This is not Chicago.I'm more as one stated interested in feeding our children, saving our farms, than feeding a Nuisance creature innocent livestock that is a TRUE PEST.A whole team of professional biologist administrate educated decisions on our wildlife issues,These houndsman have always acted first class with the wildlife contingency here.They implemented the safety havens and jumped through all the hoops ask for by the NCWRC.Your comments show bias.I'm NOT ONLY interested about saving wildlife but farming a way of life and yes peoples dogs and cats have been killed here by coyotes and some cases though rare people bitten.These houndsman have raised thousands of dollars for fire departments,youth groups,churches,cancer patients, etc.It's time these people were left alone and the Harrasment ended.
http://spamtheweb.com/ul/upload/040309/65896_BULL.png
Can you idiots stop bringing up P.E.T.A. already? It has nothing to do with this topic at all and you're making asses out of yourself (not that that's hard for some of you) and stop bringing up all this animal rights bullshit. This is not about animal rights. My god, come up with an actual, credible argument for once. And like others have said, stop raping your caps lock.
Your livestock is your responsibility, no one else's. There are many things that have been proven to significantly decrease the risks of predation, such as keep guard dogs, adding fencing, etc. If you're too lazy to do any of that, and all you can do is condemn an innocent animal to a bloody death, you don't deserve to have animals at all.
Thank you, someone with a brain!
As one of the main supporters of hsus and peta i wish all kinds of hunting would be abolished. you dumb hicks just might figure out that we are only starting with the pens. outside hunting with dogs will be next and after that all forms of hunting. i can't believe that hunting is allowed in this country. killing a poor innocent animal; that takes a real man doesn't it. by the time we finish with you, you will all be vegans and you will wreck your car, killing your only child, to avoid hitting a frog in the road. don't worry you and your "life partner" will be able to adopt another one
Probably wasn't a good idea to say that you are from PETA. Now people are definitely going to have a fit. With that said, I don't really "like" hunting at all, but I can tolerate, even respect it, if it's done for survival/food, and if the hunter makes use of their kill. However....I don't know a single person who eats coyotes or foxes.
when will this bill be voted on?
I have another statement to add, in response to a few comments directed at those who do not support coyote penning. This IS a cause worth fighting for, and I will keep on fighting, whether you like it or not. I am the daughter of a warrior, and I carry his spirit, the flame of his passions, in my heart. And this is a subject that I am very passionate about. I don't care how long it takes, I am not going to quit or back down. I will not stop fighting for what is right. I will not leave this world until something has been done about these horrific acts of cruelty. Do not make the error of assuming that, because we are on opposing sides, that I am weak and ignorant. So far, the only "facts" I have seen any coyote hunters post were distorted and taken out of context. And if I am to be the villain for caring about what is right, then I'd rather be the stupid, tree-hugging villain than the gun-and-hound toting hero. I have a dog, I don't need to have him harass and maim his cousins to keep him happy or healthy.
You know what's really sad about all of this? I am a seventeen year old girl. And I am more mature and open-minded than, apparently, most of you "adults" are. And as others have pointed out, your typing skills are worse than my old 5th grade computer class. I'm normally not that picky about spelling, but this leaves me to wonder how you acquired your licenses. I have a few honest tips for those who are in favor of keeping the coyote pens: do not threaten to harm someone for disagreeing with you, do not use such vulgar (and if I might add, stupid) language, don't distort facts to make your side look better, don't complain about being persecuted if you're just going to turn around and stereotype anyone who disagrees with you, and keep your statements consistent. First it's, "oh, we don't kill the coyotes!" then it's "yes we do!" I'm not saying that no one here, who is against coyote pens, has done nothing wrong. That's not true; both sides have gone too far. However, looking at it from a neutral standpoint, I think it's pretty clear that the majority of the flaming started out by hunters provoking and harassing non-hunters. I can tell that many of you are afraid. You're afraid of being wrong, and you see non-hunters as a threat. You should be afraid, especially since many non-hunters have managed to win several different cases. You say that we never get anything done, but that's not true. And you know it. And that's exactly why you resort to such petty behavior. Really not strengthening your case, there.
i dont get where you people think were out to kill a fox/coyote
--That was supposed to be "anything" and not "nothing." Ignore, please.
@Benjy Lassiter: Gee, it couldn't be from the numerous videos, photos and links posted. And it couldn't be directly from some of the hunters on here who admitted to killing coyotes. -.-
I Eat Foxes and coyotes all the time they taste like CHICKEN
"Im a dumb ass PETA person," do you think you could possibly make yourself and other hunters look any more foul and immature? Really helps your case.
Ceann...shmuck
Magion...shmuck
HSUS...shmuck
MIKEMD...shmuck
Anonymous...shmuck
UT OH...shmuck
Dark Lord...shmuck
You No Name Cowards...yep...your shmucks too
Wow, shmuck. Oh, the PAIN. You've hurt me! Seriously, do you have a life at all? Try posting a real response.
Wow. You must be really afraid if you're going to resort to this most childish behavior. You know you're going to lose, and you can't come up with a single intelligent thing to say. I pity you. Clearly, you're insecure. You must have a terrible social life.
WHEN WILL THIS BILL BE VOTED ON?
DO ANY OF YOU JACKASSES KNOW?
my name is paul and i am a farmer and i have never once coyote hunted in my life i know some fellow coyote hunters that hunt locally around my area and appreciate it very much. I dont know how many nights i have gotten up to my sheep raising heck and spotlighting out there for coyotes chasing them around trying to eat them or killing a calf and up around the house getting the chickens. Boys and Girls i have farmed for 20 yrs and respect all hunters because they need to be controlled if they are not controlled then u will not be able to get eggs, eat beef, or have clothes on your back because they will have us cleaned out of livestock. yes this thing is about fox/coyote pens but it all goes the same if not trapped out of the country then we would have that many more to kill our animals. I have been to a fox pen before with a co worker that does hunt i have never heard of one before that but i went along and was fun to watch dogs chase them and no they do not catch and kill them or rip them apart i am sorry that u think so but i am not a fox/coyote hunter so i have no reason to lie about it i have a farm with all kinds of animals on it so i like my animals i like the deer to come 10 ft from the house and turkeys but when coyote/fox are starting to kill my livestock it will have to end thats are food not theres when u get to many they are just like anything they will kill to keep from starving. I forgot to mention also i was checking calfs the other day and had 2 yotes chase me back to the truck lucky i wasnt in my farm truck and was in my good truck and didnt have a gun but there is one in there know
Our observations here in rural NC have shown serious economic loss to livestock farmers that is why the NCWRC has an Open Season kill at any time policy on coyotes.I'm more as one stated interested in feeding our children, saving our farms, than Feeding a Nuisance creature innocent livestock that are a drain on our American Farmers.A whole team of professional biologist administrate educated decisions on our wildlife issues,These houndsman have always acted first class with the wildlife contingency here.They implemented the safety havens and jumped through all the hoops ask for by the NCWRC.I'm not only interested about saving wildlife but farming a way of life and yes peoples dogs and cats have been killed here by coyotes and some cases though rare people bitten.These houndsman have raised thousands of dollars for fire departments,youth groups,churches,cancer patients, etc.It's time these people were left alone and the Harrasment ended.Our biologist live here not some other state, and they are fully competetnt to manage our wildlife issues many of which are phd or ms level.You can't sterotype an entire group of people because of the deeds of one fool that may have the same hobby.My mother taught school many years sometimes she caught one of her students cheating.Would it be right to label her entire class as cheaters based on the behavior of one.I seen supporters on both sides of this argument show tasteless unprofessional behavior.Is everyone bad on both sides Not at all.The attacks on peolples education/intelligence is unneccessary.Their words do speak for themselves without introduction.Some were born with an abilty to learn and become educated.Some were not,but they are still people and have a heart.That is what makes a person.Their were some that stated they did kill coyotes.Some states have a bounty on coyotes.Here in NC some farmers will either hire a nuisance trapper to trap/kill them, get the guys with hounds to run them out and shoot them, or trap them and put them in the refuges you read about.WHICH IS BEST: 1 TRAP-KILL 2 HOUNDS RUN THEM OUT SHOOT-MAIME 3 TRAP BE PLACED IN A REFUGE WITH ESCAPE HAVENS WITH FOOD-MEDICINES OR ** 4 ALLOWED TO CONTINUE TO KILL STEAL AND DESTROY A FARMERS LIVESTOCK CAUSING THEM TO POSSIBILY GO UNDER.
Well said Steven.I like none of the above choices, but the refuge is best.It was not to lone ago WRAL had interviewed people living in subdivisions where their cats and dogs were being killed.I trust our wildlife biologist decisions, and it really isn't right for a farmer providing for his family to have his livestock killed.I was on my way to church one sunday and saw some coyotes tearing apart a beautiful baby calf.My daughter began to cry.We could not go into church until I could calm her down.I do not like hunting but understand there are reasons for it.That's why people go to college to study how to manage the wildlife.If we don't hold the degree, how can we make the correct decisions.Somewhere you have trust those that do.
Any lawmaker willing to stick his neck out to do what is right deserves great respect. I certainly hope that the threats and low-class talk don't sway them from stopping this and other inhumane practices where animals are concerned. Don't worry, they and others are still working on all of the other problems of the world that the hunters claim should be addressed "first"- More than one can be worked on at once I assure you. Most of the pro- torture and killing of animals people on here are calling names, and making threats and are also barely literate, often using all caps (shouting)too. This is typical of the type of bully that enjoys killing animals. I am very glad that these guys represent the minority of our human population, as it would be a very sad commentary on our world if it weren't. Stop the chasing and killing of penned animals. There are plenty of other hobbies out there for you. THANK YOU LAWMAKERS AND THE HSUS FOR SPEAKING UT FOR THE ANIMALS WHO HAVE NO VOICE AND HAVE TO ENDURE THIS TORTURE! (AND YES, I SHOUTED THAT!)
Well lets see if I spell this response right,how about this when you take our sport away to run and train dogs for field trialing we just train our dogs to track you .you people who sit behind your computers or in front of televisions looking for a reason to start a bunch of horse shi# causes is beyond anyones reasonable reproach .do you have nothing better to do than try to make someone elses life as miserable as yours ,and you do not even have the courage to sign your name ,you have to use a cute little nickname,and for the people on here who have started the name calling and passing out threats be careful be very careful ,because there is already lawyers working on this to bring slanderous charges against those responsible for starting this type of slander on public television about fox pens and the field trialers and come on people to stop the idiots from posting just quit responding to their post thats what feeds these little insignifagant people because this is their hobby because they do not have a real enough life or any friends to have anything but a post or a poll to talk to people about so just quit responding to them and they will go away to play on another topic that they know nothing about,well got to go and feed my hounds we have a big trial this weekend and I want them to be ready.
I am not with any "group". I am not worried about a slander suit, nor should anyone else be worried. This is America. A person has a right to tell off someone else, to tell that person that they are wrong in getting perverse pleasure by watching animals being ripped apart. Debate that issue, not whether you are being slandered.
Josh, it was not a threat of physical harm, I would tell you to your face that you disgust me because you are sick. You are not an ethical hunter, if you support this garbage. You get perverse pleasure by watching animals suffer needlessly. there is the fact. I know how to use a computer, but I am not a "computer person", whatever that is.
SANDRA SAID I like none of the above choices, but the refuge is best.It was not to lone ago WRAL had interviewed people living in subdivisions where their cats and dogs were being killed.I trust our wildlife biologist decisions, and it really isn't right for a farmer providing for his family to have his livestock killed.I was on my way to church one sunday and saw some coyotes tearing apart a beautiful baby calf.My daughter began to cry.We could not go into church until I could calm her down.I do not like hunting but understand there are reasons for it.That's why people go to college to study how to manage the wildlife.If we don't hold the degree, how can we make the correct decisions.Somewhere you have trust those that do. -I FEEL THE FARMERS WAY OF SUPPORTING THEIR FAMILY IS IMPORTANT THAN COYOTES & FOXES THAT KILL THEIR POULTRY AND LIVE STOCK. Steven Said WHICH IS BEST: 1 TRAP-KILL 2 HOUNDS RUN THEM OUT SHOOT-MAIME 3 TRAP BE PLACED IN A REFUGE WITH ESCAPE HAVENS WITH FOOD-MEDICINES OR ** 4 ALLOWED TO CONTINUE TO KILL STEAL AND DESTROY A FARMERS LIVESTOCK CAUSING THEM TO POSSIBILY GO UNDER. A WORKING MANS WIFE AND CHILDREN ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN A NUISANCE PREDATOR TEARING TO PIECES INNOCENT PENNED LIVE STOCK.how can anyone defend an animal over a hard working family.can't believe it.
Frank, not going to shout,and I'm going to try and spell everything correctly. None of us are filing Law suits on the people who voice their likes and dislikes on this subject. Just the ones who tell slanderous lies about our sport. if you haven't been there, and or re-fuse to go, you can not make factual statements. Cause you dont know. Everyone of us ( fox hunters) have said the same thing. And the"rights" you were referring to goes both ways. when I was on her debating CeAnn, no matter how wrong I thought she was, or how wrong she thought I was, I respected her because she, like myself, put her name out there. She has pride in her beliefs and so do we. I WILL NOT respect ANYONE who hides, and takes gutter snipes at people , and wont stand up enough to put their name out there. With that said, Frank your are a stand-up guy, no matter what , or how you believe. Atleast you stand by your name.
And humans are supposed to be civilized? Hah... I thought our species was above this sort of thing, but apparently not. How disgusting.
I could write a novel arguing both sides of this. I just want to add a few comments.
First I’m going to quite this from above.
"You will never convince me that dogs that are trained to tear apart and kill coyotes in the wild and were trained in the running pens, do not kill the foxes and coyotes in the pens. Just isn't logical."
I just want to clarify that running dogs in a pen and running dogs outside of pens are two totally different things. They are different in practice and principle and not interchangeable. The methods and often the dogs used are completely different. Pen dogs are not taught to kill EVER. They are taught to track only. Dogs taught to kill are NEVER allowed in a pen EVER. Every pen has strict rules against kill dogs. Dogs that kill are only used on the outside of pens. If you want to argue that, that is just fine, just please understand that there is big difference between the act of running hounds in a pen and outside. I also want to clarify that there is actually very little “human teaching” involved with these dogs. The natural instinct runs so deep in their genes from thousands of year of breeding that they do it naturally. Very few dogs can actually be taught to track. You can help hone their skills, but they either do or don’t track. Same goes for kill dogs. They either do or don’t. Nobody ever forces these dogs to track or kill game. These dogs do it because they want to. The hunters or runners are simply letting the dogs do what Mother Nature tells them to do. Again you can argue that and that is fine. Just please understand the dogs aren’t trained to kill in pens.
Second, someone mentioned using guard dogs to protect livestock from coyotes. Do you think these dogs just sit there and wag their tails and the coyotes are scared of them? I assure you for most guard dogs to protect livestock there will be blood shed.
Third, some of the most intelligent college professors I’ve recently had could barely run a computer. Oh and yes some of us are actually college educated and in big cities to boot.
Four, we are seeing an increased number of coyotes with Mange. I’m not sure what’s causes this. Can some of the coyote experts tell me what going on? It’s happening all over the country. We’re seeing coyotes that are very sick and dying slow painful deaths from Mange. Any insight would be appreciated.
My, my, chuck ellis....another empty threat. Do you guys know just how foolish you are making yourselves look? Come on. Common sense, people. And don't get me started on training dogs to attack us. I've got more than pesky hounds up my sleeve. If you're attempting to sound mean and scary...take an acting class.
Brian there are two kinds of mange. There is sarcoptic and there is demodectic. Sarcoptic is the easiest to cure. Just a little Ivermectin in some food at two week intervals will take care of the problem. Coyotes can usually fight off sarcoptic unless there is an underlying problem.
Demodectic is an immune system problem. It is very difficult to treat, although the treatment is the same. Sometimes, demodectic mange will go away when the immune system matures. To try to explain demodectic.
These are microscopic mites that crawl on the skin. They keep the skin clean. Even humans have them. The immune system keeps them in check, but when the immune system becomes compromised, for any reason, they start to multiply at a very fast rate. They are hungry, little, buggers. That causes the hair loss. I have a coyote from OK who had demodectic mange when she first arrived. That is why I know more about demodectix than I do sarcoptic. She is an adult now, but I don't take any chances and I dose her once a month.with Ivermectin.
I took in a red fox puppy last year who had sarcoptic. Really bad. She was, also starving. Really a sick baby. It took almost six weeks to get rid of her sarcoptic, but I think it was because, she was also very sick. I got mange from her because, I would wrap her in a blanket and hold her close to my body to keep her warm. I just spread some of the Ivermectin on me and got rid of the mange.
Rehabbers and other people who work with wild animals deal with mange all of the time. Ivermectin is a god send.
I hope I have answered some of your questions.
so you are prescribeing ivermectin for a canine and it is intended for livestock treatment only this does not sound humane.
and also you claim to have contacted mange from a coyote or canine animal not so either .
and do you have a permit to keep wildlife in captivity and do you have a vet license?
I think I'll just take my leave here. After all, I'm not a "computer person," I do have a life....one that doesn't involve poor threats of death or violence. Carry on fighting, people. And hunters, go a head and keep up with the petty insults and threats. You're making yourself and others look worse and worse. Come on, you don't really want to help US, do you? If not, then I recommend growing up. It does wonders for some people. Some of you are making people on FP look mature, which is incredible, let me tell you. (Kudos to you if you caught the reference) Toodles.
Cncerned; I have a very good wildlife vet. All of my licenses and permits are up to date.
Concerned: You may be interested to know that Ivermectin has been tested in grey foexes and has been proven to be safe. Why are you so rude to say that I did not get mange, when, I know that I did. Here is something else that may interest you or you can also tell me that you know more about my body than I. I had had a lumpectomy on my breast and the mange mite went right for my scar the first thing.
it has not been prescribed to a canine by a certified vet and as far as your medical problems I am not a doctor or do I pretend to be but mange is not transferable to humans as with most animal dieseases and as far as your body goes you need to have your personal doctor tell you the answer to that one.I think you just need someone to talk to and you found a hot topic about something and you jumped right in ,long live the hounds and the houndsman and the foxes and coyote that they love to run.good day.
not too long ago some people were advertising an event where they pit small dogs against foxes in an earthdog setting at a fox pen in NC.
The dogs have to fight the foxes and the foxes have no chance of getting away.
They said they would bring in people from Europe to show them how to do it.
How sick is that?
that sounds cool where can I get one of them?
bend over and find out for yourself. anyone who supports that needs meds.
terriers please post your proof.i don't know of any fox pen owner that would allow this to go own .in fact the guys that have fox hounds would be peoed so much they would report it. please post your evidence. if you can provide it they would be SHUNNED by the fox houndsman FOREVER.THE LIFE OF THE FOX/COYOTE IS MOST IMPORTANT TO THESE REFUGE OPERATORS! you only have heresays if you don't have proof. as a houndsman this is most sick, and the participation would be ZERO and would not be profitable in this country. a fox refuge owner makes any income on entries-again he would lose his drawers on hosting such an idiotic event.sure love to see proof of this fairytale unless Europeans do such things- crazy.
Someone forwarded the advertisement to me a while back. It was set up by some dachsie people.
It must have been January or February.
I threw it out since it is cruel.
Someone told me about it at a dog training event just a while ago. It was at a NC fox pen, something like Heelside (sp?).
Some of the dogs must have been vicious and were cheered on to go after the poor fox.
I am not against hunting, but trapping the fox and letting a dog attack it is just wrong.
All of this slander stuff is just complete bull shit. You'd be laughed right out of court, and this nonsense about suing people over it is....well, nonsense. It's people over the internet who disagree with you. Boohoo, people disagreed. Big deal, get over it. It's Freedom of Speech, and I've seen much nastier comments from the hunters/runners than I have from the non-hunters and runners. People slander stuff all the time. George Bush was the worst president ever. Oh noes! I slandered. And guess what? Not a damn thing is going to be done about it. Twilight is the most unrealistic piece of garbage in the universe. The only good thing about Where the Red Fern Grows was that it finally did come to an end. And people, stop bringing up PETA and animal rights. And to the complete idiot who brought up gay marriage and abortion....what the HELL does that have to do with this subject? What does the Bible have to do with it? Not everyone is an extreme homophobic Christian.
If you never been to the fox refuge you do not if it is slander or not.Mis represenatation of facts have occurred which realy has nothing to do with opinion..These are NCWRC APROVED that have escape havens every 35 acres.It was portaryed these animals were being unmercilessily killed which is almost virtually imposssible with these NCWRC approved Safety Havens.The state of NC because of nuiance avtivity with live stock and pet deaths have an OPEN KILL season out in the wild. They are safer here with free food and meds than being shot by some angry farmer.People that get on post etc and curse use profanity should be blocked from being on there for our kids sake.
I just want people to know that since this debate started, I have received more and more evidence about what is going on in the coyote/fox pens in the Southern States and Wisconsin. I am being sent videos and photos of the dogs in their numbered, trial blankets killing foxes and coyotes. Why should we think that NC is any different? Especially, when one of the biggest traffickers in coyotes and foxes who was arrested, was from NC. Why don't you think these are legitimate questions? Is it possible that some of you really don't know what goes on behind the wire.? Is it possible that the owners of the pens could hide dead animal from you? What about the dogs? Are they given medications to make them run faster and harder? Believe me, there really are some of us, trying to keep an open mind and sort this out. When I see on one of the coyote killing sites, for which dogs are used to kill the coyotes in the wild, and he is very proud of that fact! In the summer, he takes those same killer dogs to MO to run in fox/coyote pens, do you see why we question what is really happening? I don't think dogs who kill can make that transition to running in a pen and not kill. I don't understand why some of you think these questions are not legitimate questions.
lets see what have i learned. will i found out that if you shot a running yote that they flip a few time before they die.going to make a nice floor rug out of them and use the carcases to bring in some more of them in. never ran a hound on one but if i would like to see that, if the hounds rip one up the way they rip up my sheep,chicken and other live stock that would be cool to.dont yall have more important think to do.yote are wild critters that kill for fun( they leave carcase all over after they kill my live stock) and if the hound hunters what to use them for fun them more power to them. hey how much do yall pay for live ones.
Joe the hunter
Your ignorance is showing.
Terriers4ever,
I'd question the validity of the advertisment that you recieved. I've never heard of pens allowing terriers in them. I think something is being taken out of context to try and link this to fox pens. The event may be true but I'm quit suspect of the fact that it was help in a fox pen.
Ceann,
Thanks for the info on Mange. I've never seen it before recently and there seem to be cases popping up accross the country. Realistically we're talking about a small percentage of the coyote population. But compated to just a couple years ago the number of cases has sky rocketed. I have no idea what kind on mange they have. Some are worse than others. Usually they have noticable hairloss and some reports they are in VERY poor health and often very skinny or nearly dead.
Can they transmit it to one another? I'm just wondering if this is going to become an epidemic or if it will just work itself out?
Also a general comment. There will be people doing wrong in every aspect of life. No "group" of people will contain perfect people. Just because there are a few in a "group" that are doing wrong doesn't mean that everyone is and the entire "group" should eliminated. Just because a few are breaking laws doesn't mean that everyone is.
ceann in a earlyer post you said that it not a good idea to feed wild yotes? a very dumb think to do dont you think?
I would think that animals would have to live very close together to transfer the mange mite. The mite can only live off of the host for three days. I can say that my baby fox lived in the house with me and my two dogs while infected and the only one who got mange was me. lol There is a vet. that specializes in demodex on the net. She is an expert on the use of Ivermectin. Her name is either Dobbs or Dodds. Her staff is very good about answering questions about mange. If you would like, I could try to find her again.
Brian Cain,
Are you saying that the advertisement was a hoax and the person who attended was making it up? Then why did I get notified of a follow-up comment?
I don't see it here, I don't understand how this site works but here it is:
"Well those people were us. And it makes you even a sicker person to totally
distort the truth.
I am not going to explain what we do, unlike all the other people here who
were patient enough to attempt to explain, and explain, and explain, and
explain (IN VAIN!!!) how the fox/coyote pens operate.
I find it interesting to read how many half-truths and flat-out lies have
been published by the anti-penning people.
Somebody was talking about proper communication skills.... yes I agree...
it is sadly lacking in many of the anti-penning people.
They fail to comprehend that it is not about usage of language, it is about
the willingness to listen/read. There is no willingness with the
anti-penning people."
Maybe there is more going on at those fox pens than you and others want to know or admit.
And I get attacked for being sick??
My dog does not attack trapped wild animals!
terrier4life,
I can't say for certain that it's a hoax, I'm just suspect that it took place in a fox pen. It goes again the principle of the fox pens. That doesn't mean that there aren't a few bad apple in the "group" that may have allowed it to happen. Just don't judge everyone by what a few have done. There will always be isolated incidences that gives everyone else a bad name. This happens in any community. There are always a few that do things that make other look bad.
Also to everyone, remember that dogs have been used to hunt game for thousands of years. There are images inside ancient Egyptian tombs showing greyhounds hunting hares. We like to think that "we" have evolved since these times. But even today there are dogs being used to hunt food for human survival on this planet. We in this country live a life of privilege and it's easy to say that we should be more evolved than other people. The truth is we aren't. Humans are still the most savage and violent animal walking the face of the earth. If one man uses a dog to hunt food to feed his family, the next to protect his livestock and the next for sport, we are walking a fine line. It's easy to say that there is bold line between killing for necessity and fun. The problem is, it's socially acceptable to kill for fun in certain communities just as it is acceptable to kill for necessity in others. If we can't kill coyotes and fox, then we can't kill pheasants, fish, cows, chickens etc. A couple last thoughts, first, none of this matter because as stated quite clearly above fox pens should be classified as chasing game not killing game. Accidents happen, but the goal is not to kill them. Lastly I hate the way this message boards won't allow for paragraphs. It's very hard to split up different thoughts and ideas.
One thing to remeber is that PETA. Is such a great protector of animals. That is why they were caught putting dogs to sleep and dumping them in a dumpster. HSUS is about as good, a article I read when I Googled Amanda Arrington's name stated that they confiscated Pit Bulls that were fighting type dogs and put down pups that were born after they took them from the owner. These two groups are a fine standard of how we should treat animals.
I guess with track records like this this makes them experts on how wild animals should be taken care of. I guess they know better than anyone especially the NCWRC on the populations and the best means of keeping these in check. They can't see the forest for the trees.
I have read alot of the post made by people on this subject. I have read some that make sense and others that could not be more of track if they tried to get lost. I know the ones that are lost and are looking for a cause think they sound smart but, you can really tell they have no idea what they are talking about from the beginging. I was always taught someone may think you are stupid and as soon as you open your mouth they know you are. Before all you Anti's get on a subject like this you need to know the facts, just not what another misinformed or person that is looking for a pot to stir tells you they are.
Just to clear some things up. The law suits that are being discussed are not on anyone posting on this website. We are going ofter the ones who put theirself in the Public eye and speak mis-truths about the sport and the people who par-take in it. If you have never been there, you cant just tell the Facts as you WANT them to be. CeAnn, please stop comparing the way the guys hunt in the Mid-West , to the way we run in the fox pen in NC. Its not the same. Not even close. You guys have Prairies , we have pine thickets. I can run down a yote in a wide open space,lol . Just remember , we take OUR kids to these field trials. Do you or anyone else think WE would expose our lil childern to fox hunting if it were the way some of you describe it? We are not DOG fighters. If that were the case, why does the NCWRC issue permits to the pens? They come out and inspect them 2,3,4 times a year. And they are all surprise inspections. The NCWRC is the one who should be handling this issue, not the NC Congress. Which brings me to my last point. We put on these hunts to raise money for people and groups in our communities. That money goes to them, to help them. The money the lobbyist for the HSUS is passing out, who is it going to? The Needy, or the greedy. guys do you really think these congressmen give a DANG about a fox? Is that what they got elected for?Sen. HUNT and Rep Harrell did not run on this platform. Its all about the MONEY. And those are FACTS, not distorted beliefs. If they were concerned with fox pens, they themselves would have come out , when WE invited them, to take a look. They BOTH declined.
Again with the PeTA BS. Is there a single one of you that knows how to argue without looking like an ignorant fool?
Why are fox pens permitted if they're not simply dogfighting? Because it's only cruel to abuse certain animals, and coyotes aren't one of them.
Brian Cain, do you actually eat foxes and coyotes? The reason people disapprove of hunting them is because of the simple fact that they are not considered food, or prey animals. Nobody that I've met ever eats them. Of course, there may be an exception to that, but as a general rule....nobody eats coyotes or foxes. There just isn't a good reason to kill them. The overpopulation line, especially in regards to coyotes, is a bunch of crap. And if anyone here has ever taken a basic biology/ecology class, that alone disproves the overpopulation thing. Animals cannot truly exceed carrying capacity. If they do, they die off. Morally speaking, there's just no good reason to kill predatory animals (now, if it's a case of self-defense, that I can understand, even if I don't necessarily like it). And logically speaking...again, no real, solid reason to kill them.
And I agree about the paragraph thing. That's why I split up some of my posts.
Mav. about the only thing you and I agree on was the commit about Twilight. But my wife likes it, so Im stuck with it. Im not a Homophobe, but I am a christian. I lived out side of San Fran for 5 years, I think I have seen it all. I dont think I look like a fool, posting my Facts and beliefs on this post. Its not just here for you. And you are not the thought police. Or are you? Everything I post is based on proven Fact. You and I can Debate anytime my friend. Hope you are having a wonderful GOOD FRIDAY. and God Bless!
-snorts- What you posted were assumptions and comments completely unrelated to this topic. What the hell does gay marriage, abortion and the Bible have to do with coyote/fox pens? Nothing at all. You can have your beliefs, that's fine. But they're not at all related to the topic, and you just ended up making yourself look foolish. 'sides, I don't need God's blessings. I've got Hades. He's sexier. =P
Mav. Its is Fact that most all animal rights people support the right for 2 men, or women to be married. It is Fact the most ALL animal rights people Believe in killing a unborn child. And it is fact that all animal rights people dont believe in God. hints the way they put Beast before Man. what does this have to do with fox pens? It shows just how far out there and extreme you guys are. like it or not ,a great majority of this State still believes in God, Bible, and the Man up stairs. If you can try and prove to people that we " rip foxes to shreds" or " its like dog fighting", them I going to show just how far out there YOUR way of thinking is. Just like Rights, slander, works both ways. But at least we agree on Twilight. What a waste of a good TREE.
Are you on crack? Those are not facts, and again, they are NOT related to this subject whatsoever. Also, do you know how to read? Nobody on here, who is against penning, has brought up animal rights. And I suspect that the one person who claimed they were from PETA was just one of you hunters trying to start trouble.
Your right. !!!!!You WIN!!!. Thanks for letting me play Cant argue your intelligence. How I made it through life this long with out you guidance, I'll never know. going back to Draggen my knuckles now. You whooped me pretty bad. GOD, you are right on so many points. You are Truly the smartest person ALIVE. Thank you for letting me LIVE in YOUR world. Im sorry for being soooo stupid. In MAV we trust!!!!!!!!
Those are definitely not facts. They are arseumptions (spelled that way on purpose; if you caught on, good for you) and stereotypes that, once again, have absolutely nothing at all to do with this topic. Gay marriage and abortion are completely unrelated. If you can't come up with an argument relevant to this topic, maybe you should go protest against abortion and gay marriage somewhere else, where people will actually give a damn. I normally don't swear, simply because I prefer to be tactful, but in this particular case I think I can make an exception. What. The. Fuck. Nobody is out to get your little religion. It is completely irrelevant to this entire topic, same with homosexuality and abortion. Unless you can find an actual, solid, proven fact to argue with, maybe you should remove yourself from this topic. Clearly, you have no idea at all what you're talking about. Aside from a poorly disguised hunter claiming to be from PETA, no one else has claimed to be for animal rights. If you don't want people making arseumptions about you, then don't make arseumptions about other people for simply disagreeing with you. Newsflash: there are people in the world who won't agree with you. Get off your high horse, and grow up. As to the *actual* subject, whether the foxes/coyotes are killed or not in these pens, I still do not approve of using live animals as bait.
You're right, I am smarter than you. And if I say that I'm the god of spelling and grammar checks, I certainly hope you'll start using them.
Off topic, but good news for the people who care about coyotes. Camilla Fox and her org, Project Coyote have stopped the night time killing of Coyotes in Maine for seven months of the year. You will find a link to Project Coyote on my web site www.coyoterescue.org The board that oversees Maine's wildlife also have accepted the evidence for compensatory response to lethal control. Things are looking up for coyotes!
That is great news!
I'm still learning. What does it mean when a dog runner makes this comment, "I pumped him up good?" He is talking about his dog in a trial.
Sounds like a comment that a peta person would make I am sure they pump some animals !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OMG, someone pumped up a dog? I bet they fed him raw chicken.OMG. dont they know that's strait protein. OMG don't they know that will make the muscles GROW. OMG. why would you give a dog strait protein to make him grow? Strait Protein to make his coat shine. Straight protein to give him energy. How cruel! Making a dog eat raw chicken. I bet the dog tore it to shreds too. No different than feeding road kill or is IT?
Dog Runner Is that what it means? Feeding a high protein diet? You don't have to be mean, condescending and demeaning to me just because I ask a question. Dog running is something that I am learning about. I saw that phrase on one of the dog running sites and just wanted to know what it meant.
CeAnn , if you wanted to know something like that. And YOU know I posted it. All you had to do was ask ME. You have my e-mail. Not come on here with ' in your windows' about "pumping up" a dog. You guys have made reference to our sport as dog fighting, now you think you got us for DOPEING. reaching a little far arent we.. and next time get MY words right " we pumped him up for the BENCH show" with means, He worked out , took his vitamins and said his prayers for the SHOW not the GO. the same a Hulk Hogan ..thats it
Okay, enough of this garbage. Do not ever attack CeAnn again. She was asking a question. It's not illegal. Honestly, I would have thought you'd be glad she ASKED the question instead of just assuming something. At least SHE has made an effort to be civil. SHE didn't resort to pathetic name-calling. And she didn't bring up all this religious bull shit. You "runners" and "hunters" just keep dragging yourselves down to whole new levels of immaturity. If you can't answer a simple question without lashing out and being condescending about it, then you shouldn't be on the internet. You should be seeing a therapist. Not only do all of you keep bringing up useless topics that have nothing at all to do with penning, you make arseumptions about everyone who DARES to disagree with you, and then you have the nerve to insult and provoke anyone who actually asks a simple question. Hypocrisy at its absolute finest.
If anyone has any evidence of what really goes on in the live bait running pens, pictures of dogs with numbers painted on them, mauling coyotes and foxes to death, please send to
Ban Live Bait Dog Training
PO Box 186
Burlington, IN 46915
Don't include your name.
Magion, is it really necessary to use such language. I mean every post you make , you cuss. I think its you who brings down Your cause. If you do not believe in God, that is fine, but you put down the ones who do and you will never get any support from the everyday folk. I WILL NOT LET MY CHILD, read any thing else on this site. Oh, by the way , we were on Your side. sorry
Sorry to inform you, pumpkin, I haven't sworn that much. Maybe you should break out of your little bubble long enough to look at some of the earlier posts that would have made a sailor blush. Beside that, your child is your responsibility. Not mine. And I was not putting down God; I was putting down a fool who continues to bring up ridiculous subjects that have nothing at all to do with penning. I've been as respectful as I can. But I'm not going to sugarcoat every little word I say. I don't care what people believe in, I wouldn't care if people worshiped the Ice Cream Fairy. However, the Ice Cream Fairy has nothing to do with coyote/fox penning. I never brought my own religious beliefs into this. Not only has J Thomas attacked everyone who disagreed with him and brought up topics that are in no way related to penning, he has also made religiously intolerant comments and has made arseumptions about anyone who dares to have a different opinion than him. I refuse to justify myself to peoplew ho have no idea what they're talking about. Your child shouldn't even be visiting these sites to begin with. I have made several good points, along with people on my side here, while everyone who opposes us brings up the most random crap I've ever seen and tries to pass it off as a credible argument. The hunters are hurting their own cause and they don't need any help to do it. I, in all honesty, couldn't care less about your kid. I don't know you or your child. YOU are the parent. The child is YOUR responsibility, not mine.
That was supposed to be "people" and "who."
MAGION, I RECALL YOU SAYING YOU ARE 17 EARLIER UP HERE SHOULDNT YOU BE DOING SCHOOL WORK AND GET OUT OF THE HOUSE AND GET A LIFE LIVING IN FRONT OF A COMPUTER AINT GOING TO GET YOU NOWHERE! I WOULD BE SURPRISED IF HAVE EVEN SEEN A FOX OR COYOTE IN THE WILD LOOKS LIKE YOU CANT FIND ANYTHING ELSE TO DO BUT GET ON UR COMPUTER AND FIND A WEBSITE TO TRY AND TALK JUNK! YOU MIGHT WANT TO BE CAREFUL UR MOM MIGHT SEE WHAT YOU BEEN TYPING AND POSTING SO UNCALLED FOR!!! COYOTE MAMA!!!! I SEE YOU DNT HAVE ANYTHING FOR BACKUP YOU GETN DESPERATE NOW ASKING FOR PICS AND VIDEO WOW!!!
JJ, sweetheart, it takes about 3 minutes to visit this website and type a response, not all day. I realize that, for someone like you, using a computer is probably the hardest thing you've ever done. However, the computer takes up, at most, half an hour of my day. My schooling is none of your concern. I assure you that I am well educated. In fact, I'm directing a movie with a close friend. So, you see, I am doing something with my life. You, however, don't seem to be. And your caps lock would like to file an abuse report. By the way, you of all people should not be harassing people over schoolwork...especially since you can't spell to save your life and the use of "ur" over "your" is a clear indication that you yourself probably are not educated. Most likely, you dropped out because of your horrid use of chatspeak. Typing two extra letters won't kill you. Once again, I suggest that everyone on here grows some testicles and learns how to debate without descending to the level of cheap shots and WITH the use of a grammar/spell check.
Live bait dog training? Never heard of it??? Track running a coyote now I have heard of that. Its the same thing as a blood hound working a track for the lost hiker. See if you guys can compr-a-hend this now a hound puts his nose down, just like a beagle, just like a blood hound, just like a collie in a tracking class, however a hound prefers a fox or coyote track. It works that track and barks where ever that fox or coyote went, and picks up points inside of a fox pen for doing this in front of a group of judges with a number painted on its back. Now for some unknown reason us ignorant redneck hicks love to win a trophy for the best dog that does this. Its what we do and its what we love. That is it! You keep showing vidoes of people on the outside "hunting to kill" foxes or coyotes. Thats not the idea of a pen and thats not what happens in a fox pen, now if darth vador or dark hoar or whatever you name is, or big ole momma pelosi would ever decide to come to a fox pen and see what happens for themselves, this is what you would see. Noooo such torture. Give me a break this is probably the only form of "hunting" where no one trys to kill anything at all, and you people who know nothing about it want to get it outlawed. Wow apparently you all need a reality check. Its cool I am sure you will jump on here with a dictionary and edit my spelling, but if that’s all your tiny little minds can focus in on then I obviously have won this argument. Ceanna I have read all your post and respect your views, and I at least respect the fact that you put your real name. I don’t see anything wrong with trying to save wildlife myself and I can honestly say if this sport caused as much pain and torture as you seem to think it does to a coyote or fox then I would not be doing it. But I love my hounds and it is not fair to them to leave them in their pens all of the time, they love to run and I love to see and hear them run, and I sure dont wanna see them get run over by a Cadillac from Indiana, so I am gonna take them to a fox pen and let them run. They are gonna come back tired and happy, I am gonna come back tired and happy, and the foxes and coyotes are gonna go eat their high protein dog food and be happy so apparently the only one left that is unhappy is you.
JJ It is always good to collect new evidence. The top of my desk is loaded with evidence on live bait dog training, however, new stuff is always needed.
Magion, You have single handily proven every point I have tried to make. I don't need to give a WEBSITE address, or a BOOK, or even a STUDY, to prove my point on" ANIMAL RIGHTS" activist. All we hunters have to do is make a commit and let YOU do all the work for us. I can go back and prove every talking point I have, just on YOUR commits alone. If you want me too, I can go back and type out for ya. "What does the Bible, gay marriage, abortion, and the Constitution have to do with running dogs in a Fox Pen", Absolutely Nothing. It does how ever,show the EXTREME thought process you activist have. It shows how" out of touch " you are with the rest of the country.And YOU have PROVEN that for us time and again. Now before you go on your ti rant about how stupid we hunters are, how much more ed-ja-ma-cated you are than the rest of us, go back and READ some of YOUR commits and ask yourself," How have I helped my cause". Myself, I attacked the people who have attacked my sport with lies and called them FACTS. I am in the fox pen about 3 times a week. You little lady, have never been to one. BUT ,you know everything about them by what you have read on websites, And that make you smarter on this subject than me? I think not. I will advise everyone who has the time, to back and read ALL of Magion commits. At 17 years old, SHE has got the World figured out, haven't you? Just because you CUSS and call people STUPID, doesn't make you a Grown up. But just for giggles lets hear'em anyway. And please, by all means, us that colorful language you are known for. There might be one or two people left out there that YOU haven't offended and turned against you. so ROCK ON MAGION!!
Anyone know how I can post a photo on this site? I have a new, neat program that lets me cut photos out of videos.
In solidarity for God's Dog
CeAnn
CeAnn, with all due respect, you can post all the pics you want about dogs killing coyotes, but not one of them were taken in a fox pen in NC or any other pen for that matter. What the people in Indiana do is not my, or anyone Else's concern in NC. Congress waisting is time on this, and trying to take away someones rights is OUR concern. Please Do Not take my or anyone Else's Kindness for WEAKness. People are checking in to your background and the relationship with the HSUS in NC ,on this matter. Sell it some where else. Believe me when I tell you, WE will not bring sand to a mudslinging match. We Hunters and Fox Pen owners have nothing to hide. DO YOU?
I just want to add a comment about feeding raw protein (meat) to dogs. Running hounds are animal athletes and should be cared for like an athlete. Dogs are carnivores and most commercial kibble style dog foods contain a great deal of non digestible grains/potatoes etc. There are many in the show/companion dog world that believe in feeding raw proteins as well. In the running dog world some feed raw full time. Some feed kibble but will feed raw at certain times before, during and after or some combination to supply a great deal of energy and rebuild muscle tissue after running. See I'm not your typical dog runner. I'm also a triathlete and how I use food to fuel and recover is very important. The same goes for dogs, so it's common for handlers to pump up a dog with raw meat before and after a long run.
Brian, thank you. I really didn't know what "pumped up" meant. Does it bother you that the coyotes in the pens are fed dog food? Where do they get their meat. How do they exercise their normal feeding behaviours? Like tearing, carrying, and burying their food? Coyotes also spend a lot of time doing some ritualized fighting and pulling of their food. Running, chasing to keep other coyotes away. Feeding behavior is a big part of their life. My concern with an all dog food diet is dehydration from diarrhea. Unless, you feed a meat and rice combination dog food to the coyotes in the pens, that is what you will get.
Jerry, laugh at me and demean and threaten me all you want. The Indiana trappers did just that. They called me the "talking coyote head." They don't laugh at me anymore. Which does bring up the trappers that sell for the live market to the running pens. They are going crazy right now, wondering how they will survive if the running pens close and they lose money, because they are the people who replace the numbers of our wildlife to the running pens. I have now received photos of dogs with numbers on them killing coyotes. Don't take me for stupid, just because I like to be civil.
CeAnn, not laughing at you or trying todemean you. But YOU are wrong if you think Indiana coyotes are finding their way to NC fox pens. That is a State LAW, and we want No part of that.Thats the first thing the NCWRC checks for. So if you can , please provide proof. Tell me and the rest of the world who these people are, from NC,that are buying them. BY NAME. My next question is, Do you not in some way feel bad for the effects of the over population of coyotes, or feel remorse for the people and pets they have attacked and Or killed? This free range notion that people and coyotes can live together at free will, is crazy." You cant give a wild animal a name and think that will make him love you". I said it then and I say it now. The very thing you try and protect, AND love,if left alone will self destruct. There are balances to everything. No Biologist in this state or yours will agree with you. Hunters ARE the biggest conservationist in NC. YOU dont live here , so how would you know. By what you read on someones WEBSITE? So you have a Dog with a number on it killing a yote.Well how big was the fox pen? Where is the wire? What state was the dog in at the time? Whats the Hunters name on the collar?And what does this have to do with the fact that our state is in financial meltdown and OUR congress has time for THIS? Please bring the facts out. This is a debate,so no ill intent is meant by my comments. Just present your case with facts. At no time his anyone disrespected you. We all say the same thing, at least you put your name out there.
ceannicrc,
The pen that I'm the most familiar with that has coyotes feeds more animal carcasses than dog food. Generally in the cold months they feed primarily all deer(legally acquired, usually road kill) or livestock carcasses(from local farmers). The carcasses are buried once the animals are done because they will rot. In the summer it's too warm to feed large animal carcasses because they rot quickly so then it's primarily kibble and small pieces of meat. This one also has natural ponds for water, but they get kind of scummy in the middle of summer so the owner has large short barrels that he puts fresh water in daily. I've seen the coyotes up close and they appear just as healthy as those in the wild. They show no apparent signs of physical or physiological problems. You know better than anyone how intelligent and adaptive these animals are. They seem to adapt and figure it out pretty quit. Considering the coyotes have lived in these pens for years under these condition, their physical health must be okay. The ironic thing is the raccoons are moving into the pen. They've found the free buffet and are climbing over the fence or trees to get in and have decided to stay. The trees branches actually go over the fence so they could leave if they wanted. But they don't.
sorry its suppose to say" HAS "not his.
Ceanna so let me get this straight, because I said they are feed high protein dog food now you are being critical and saying you want them to be feed raw meat and have "ritualized fighting" for that meat. Give me a break, if you could hear yourself talk you might not even take yourself seriously. I am glad you have a picture of a dog with a number on it. In North Carolina they have outside fox field trials, deer field trials, coon hunting field trials, fox pen field trials, beagle field trials, you name a dog and they have a field trial for it. If you spent some time in the great state of North Carolina and actually went to several of these events you would know that. But instead you would rather comb through dog running sights and target pictures they may benefit you, all the while sitting on your butt. I have a suggestion for you, you wanna help the coyote population and love animals and help their cause. Get off your butt and quite pecking on a computer about it. I gaurentee you I have saved more animals and done more for the resources of North Carolina than you have every thought about doing with your seven coyotes and couple foxes. Give me a break! So dont patronize me or any of these other "redneck" boys that want to hunt and do the things that they love, just because you have different views on it. Who made you the say all for the human race? Actually let me ask you this what is your college degree in? please answer me this, what gives you the expertise to even keep wild coyotes or foxes at your residence, please explain that to me? Like several people said on here if you want to rescue wildlife thats fine its your business, but keep your nose out of our business.
Brian, thank you for letting me know about the feeding at the pen where you run. I also feed road killed deer. I used to feed dead livestock, but don't anymore since a farmer euthanized a sick calf with a drug that then killed two of my coyotes when I fed the carcass. I also don't feed pork because of pseudorabies. I feed a lot of chicken leg quarters in the summertime, I don't like to deal with maggotts . When I don't have meat, then I feed dog food that is chicken or lamb mixed with rice. My coyotes also love broccoli and things like lettuce and cabbage that they can tear apart. Even, if they don't eat the cabbage, they sure enjoy tearing it up. They also like corn on the cob and berries. Matt, coyotes are my business and have been for twenty two years. I have been observing coyote behavior in captive coyotes for twenty two years. When I started in 1986, people cared about wolves. No one seemed to care about the coyote. Erich Klinghammer gave me the book God's dog by Hope Ryden. After reading that book, I was hooked on coyotes. As they say, the rest is history. Have you seen my website?
Matt and Brian, before we are told" them big bad hunters are bullying poor CeAnn". Let stop and think about things. First,CeAnn we have ALL shown you respect from your first post, where you came out like a lion, to now acting like the ' poor lil lamb" when you are proven wrong. It was you who posted MY commits about the "pumping up" of a dog. And DID NOT quote me accurate by the way. I called you out along with some one named DOGGRUNNER. And now you play victim? You say its to learn more about using dogs, but YOU yourself said you have been studying this for Years. You yourself said, YOU know what goes on in these pens, yet you claim you are "just asking"? So are you an expert or not? Everyone of us have been on here saying we are not out to catch or kill anything. YET, you say you have proof that this IS our intent by showing pictures of a yote being killed. Problem is , we dont have terrain that looks like that here in NC. I cant find one fox pen that has that much open area. But you have pictures. Well CeAnn I have pictures too. Of all the people out of work in NC. Thats right North Carolina, my state, and MY people. Now if you think they are going to jump on YOUR band wagon and fight against the people left who put money back it their communities and donate to the charities that directly effects them, please do some more research about the people of this GREAT State. Like the Coyotes in NC, you know nothing of the People either. No CeAnn , you have found a platform to speak on. Where you think you can show some pictures and WE THE PEOPLE of NC will fill bad about what you have shown us, And we will donate money to your cause. You spout off half truths ,twisting Mine and others words around, and spinning them the way you want them, Not the way they are. Then changing the subject or playing victim when you are called out . Problem is CeAnn , we are one step ahead of you. Truth is truth and facts are facts Madam. and the truth is WE hunter who run in the fox pens care just as much for the life of the yotes as you. And that goes for all NC wildlife. Though we dont name them cute lil names or bring them out of the cold, we do care. So as people in my state are losing jobs, you and our beloved congressmen HUNT and HARRELL are waisting time on an animal that YOUR Great State has deemed a predator. An animal who kills other animals( live stock and household pets )and is known to maim and maul little children. MY pack of Fox Hounds have ever done that. So are there are No problems in your state? If you do the research about the Great people of this state you will also find that we are NOT worried so much about what happens in the backyards of others , as much as our own. So let me say this one more time, as nice as I can. Sell this some where else, we aint buying it.
Reading a book called "Gods Dog" and observing injured coyotes eat lettuce and chicken flavored dog food doesnot and I repeat Doesnot make you an experte. In fact all it makes you is a zoo keeper. Thats great you read books they do make you smarter.
Jerry, I try my best to stay on topic and not get side tracked. Do you know about "Operation Foxyote?" It was a sweep across the southeastern running pens. It did include NC. I have the report but don't know how to submit it on this site for people to read. It was a collaberative effort by NC, SC, AL and GA. state wildlife agencies., along with federal officers. This took place the last of 2007.
Then send it to ME. CeAnn I ask you questions and you change topics. Like the question on pumping a dog up; you knew it was me that posted that commit, and you have my EMAIL. But you chose to put it on here and change the words around to make someone look bad.WE are asking you to SHOW us and all you want to do is talk about the propaganda you have on you desk. Send it to me, or Matt, or Brian. We are the ones asking. And If this study was done in 2007, how come it was NEVER brought up in the NCWRC public meetings?With it now being 2009, permits are still being issued for fox pens and field trials. If they would have found a problem in NC, do you think that would still be going on? CeAnn I like you but every question I have asked on here or by Email, you have avoided. Come on now..as far as posting you propaganda on here, what good is that going to accomplish. I can post a picture of the Devil eating Ice cream just to prove its not HOT in Haydez.
Once again, J Thomas, you have no idea what you're talking about. I have not proven any of your bull shit claims about animal rights activists. YOU are bringing up animal rights. YOU are bringing up abortion. YOU are bringing up Christianity. YOU are bringing up homosexuality. Not me. I am not an animal rights activist, and no one else here has claimed to be. No one else has mentioned being for/against abortion or gay marriage. Do you have any brains at all? I mean, you must have something between your ears...Wait, don't answer that. I already know the answer. -sighs- I'm done here. I might as well be arguing with rocks; I'd get more intelligent results from them than I would from you. Besides, I have a movie script to get back to.
Jerry Thomas, I think it is obvious that Magion is more educated than you are, given you've probably never even heard of the words "dictionary" and "spelling check" before. I know Magion personally. And I also know that you have not said or done a single thing that has helped your cause at all. All you have done is change the subject and go completely off topic to insult everyone against you. You have not provided any true facts. The very most you've done is come up with some of the strangest and most bizarre assumptions I've ever seen out of anyone. I've read all of Magion's comments (learn how to spell that and maybe you'll look slightly smarter). Most people have. And she's been contacted by a lot of people who actually really loved her comments. Only a few people have spoken out against her, and not a single one of them has argued in a mature fashion. You don't know anything about Magion at all. You don't know whether she's been to a fox pen or not. All you're doing is victimizing yourself and trying to act as though the mean, nasty "animal rights activist" (which, again, you do not know she is one, and she's stated before a few times now that she is not one, thus disproving your assumption) is ganging up on you. You have not done or said anything close to resembling mature or reasonable. You've verbally abused all who disagree with you. You know that you're losing this argument, and so you degrade yourself and attempt to drag others down with you. I pity you, I truly do. And I can tell you right now that in a real debate, you would have your ass handed to you. (Yes, I swore; sue me. I can pull up tons of hunters' posts that contain much more vulgar language than this). Stop taking cheap shots at Magion. She has made several good points, and instead of considering them, you just demean yourself and drag yourself down. If anyone is making themselves look like an ass, it's you. You have three options; grow up and gain some maturity (learn how to debate without throwing horrible insults at people), keep acting like an immature, spoiled brat, OR leave all together.
I think some on here are sure smoking crack.
Mav, tell me why you are against penning. Remeber don't bring up anything about animal rights. You yourself said " Nobody on here, who is against penning, has brought up animal rights." Do you even have any idea what you are talking about? I think you have about worn that paddle out you are using, you may need to go buy another one. You have stired the pot so much you have gotten lost on what you are even talking about.
I know I may have mispelled a word or two and my punctuation may not be the best. Just because you are better in Language Arts than I am don't think for one minute you are smater than I am or anyone else on this board either.
Just getting home from school are ya? I love the insults from a 17 year old smart ellic, who has life figured out. Come on call me some more names. You see, where you and I differ, Is I have a JOB. I have a HOME. I pay TAXES. and I am old enough to VOTE. But you are right ,what do I know about anything. I mean you go to school. and that makes you soooo smart. You only allow us to live in your world. where is the colorful language today. I mean isn't that WHAT makes you sound MUCH smarter and more mature than us. I mean you are So grown up and all. you ROCK!
Keep going, keep going! This is great. This is great new material for my book, "Hunters Uncovered." And what is a smart "ellic?" And how do you "stire" a pot?
It's spring break, you dumb fuck.
Uh, yeah, isn't Easter on the 12th? And usually spring break is the week leading up to it.
ceannicrc, do you try and represent chasing and hunting live prey with your captive coyotes and fox (I think you said you had a fox too)? I've tried it with dogs using already dead carcasses and different forms of food, but they just don't seem to respond to it like chasing live game. I know coyotes are great scavengers but do they need the mental stimulation of hunting? I know many in the companion dog world are really pushing artificial hunting to stimulate the minds of these hunting breeds that are kept in companion homes and not allowed to hunt. I also have a question for those against fox pens, what's your opinions on using dogs to heard livestock?
Talk about cheap shots and being Rude. AND standing in a crowd and throwing F-bombs is cool too. it thats way you gotta play, then by all means continue.
About the only thing I'll ever agree with you on. The 'dumb fuck' statement was a bit uncalled for. Though she/he was right about this week being spring break, and you can't exactly say you didn't deserve it, with all the cheap shots you have been making at everyone who is not an exact clone of yourself.
Clearly, this is not getting any of us anywhere. I am not greatly for or against penning, since I admit that I don't know enough on the subject. Jerry Thomas, you say you have sources to back up your 'facts' regarding 'animal rights activists,' but you also say you won't share them. This leads me to believe you don't have any actual, reliable sources at all. I agree with the others; this subject is penning, not the rights of gays, not abortion, and not your religion. You have no proof at all that everyone who disagrees with you is for gay marriage or abortion, and you have no proof that everyone here who disagrees with you is not a Christian. In a real debate, you would not last a minute. I joined a forum a long time ago that had a debate board, and when I went in without facts to back up my claims, I was mercilessly flamed over it. And I deserved it. People have been blunt with you. You have been far beyond blunt with people. You have taken nearly all of your posts past the bluntness stage and into harassment. This is the internet. People are going to disagree with you, so if you cannot handle that, then I recommend taking a break from it. This isn't a perfect world where everyone shares the exact same ideas and thoughts. This is a world where people are going to disagree, and argue. Insults are going to happen, although I do not believe that is an excuse to belittle every person who shares a different take on fox pens. Mav, I agree with some of your points. Speaking as someone who knows Magion and Mav very well, I feel I can safely say that no, they are not rabid animal rights activists. There is immaturity on every side I have seen in regards to this whole penning subject. Yes, Magion and Mav both have sworn. Their swearing, I believe, was rather mild compared to some of the earlier posts. Jerry Thomas, you are very far from innocent when it comes to the flaming responses you have given to everyone who does not agree fully with everything you say. To a student: harsh, I feel that language wasn't entirely necessary, though (at least, where I live) I know this week is spring break. I encourage everyone on here to take a break from this subject. No, I cannot enforce it, but I do strongly advise it. Obviously, nobody is going to change anyone else's opinion on fox pens. Argue all you want, fight to your heart's desire, it will do no good for anyone.
Misanthrope at No time did I say I will not show facts. And yes I will be harsh to anyone who 1st. will not post their names. 2nd. portray lies as facts. and 3rd. attack they way of life for me and thousands of others in eastern NC. At no time have I resorted to belittling people on their typing or spelling skills. As far as a debate, I assure you I can hold my own. This is NOT myspace or Facebook where language such as this is tolerated.This is a PUBLIC debate on a subject that I and many more hold dear to their heart. As far as facts go, it is fact that this state has more pressing issues to deal with, than a fox pen. As far as facts go on the " animal right activist", just go back and read ALL the commits and correlate them with what I have said their beliefs are. I have asked several questions and have got NO answers. Just insults. Whether I believe that Jesus was the son of GOD or life begins at conception, if you do not produce FACTS to back up your argument, I am going after you. Harsh or not. Nothing personal, just give facts. Every time MY sport is compared to DOG FIGHTING or called a blood sport, I 'm going to ask you to provide facts. Now if you have never been there, how can you do that? Looking at propaganda websites or bias study groups are not FACTs. Like many of my friends, the fox pen issue as well as the jobloss in this state, effects ME. Just having an opinion on the subject is not the same as being directly affected by it.
You have not provided any facts. You have provided opinions with not a single source to back it up. When you claim you know everything about a subject and then say you won't prove it, that is an indication that you cannot back your statements up. Give us websites, give us proof. I am not for or against penning, however, it does not look good to make such personal presumptions about people who disagree with you (you claim everyone who disagrees with you supports killing children and marrying the same sex, say it's a fact, and do not back it up). The same things have been said to you repeatedly, and still, you choose to ignore requests for informational sources. Jesus's birth is not at all related to fox penning. You haven't been "harsh," you have been highly hypocritical, irrational, condescending, and insulting. Half of what you've talked about does not in any way have anything to do with fox penning. And, yet again, nobody on here has claimed to be an animal rights activist. Please stop telling all animal rights activists to read something over...it has been said many times. No one here has claimed to be for animal rights. You can't accuse everyone of a different opinion than yours of being a peta/AR supporter and then complain when they defend themselves. Before telling others to look over their own comments you should really step back and take a very good look at yourself. I am not one to normally pick at people over their spelling, but I can understand Magion's point: it seems as though all hunters and runners on here do not type or spell very well. I don't think I could call that a coincidence, since there are apparently so many of you. You also apparently feel like hating and judging everyone who doesn't use their real full name. However, there are many people on your side who haven't used THEIR real full names, either, and you, on occasion, only used your initials. Also, it is dangerous to give out such personal information online, and to people you do not know. I warn you to stop trying to goad personal information out of people who may be minors. I truly don't care what name people use on here or anywhere else online, as long as it does not violate site rules/the law.
And yes, you have basically said that you will not prove your claims: "don't need to give a WEBSITE address, or a BOOK, or even a STUDY, to prove my point on" ANIMAL RIGHTS" activist. "
What more do any of you people want from any hunters? Please elaborate, we don’t have fancy studies conducted by Halliburton on oil (which are like every study I have ever seen, One sided!), like wise we don’t have fancy studies conducted on the life and trying times of a coyote in the wild, or the life of a fox in a 1,000 acrea pen. What we do have is state paid biologist that come and inspect our fox pens every year, sometimes more, and tell us if they are legal or not. Period. I would hope to god they know more about it than an immature seventeen year old girl or a lady who seems to think she talks to coyotes. What we as hunters also have is what we have seen with our own eyes, unlike the majority of you we have tried to relay this information to you ill informed morons. Apearently it isnt working. All I have heard since I got on this stupid "blog" style post is blahblahblahblah I’m on spring break so poo to you and babbles about Jesus, gay's, animal rights, and so on and so on. Its probably the most piss poor debate I have ever seen. You people just need to face the facts, you have never been to a fox pen so you haven’t got a clue what goes on inside of a fox pen, hell you have asked if we tie up bears and wrestle them? What kind of alien planet are you from. Maybe you have seen way to many western movies. You all have been invited to go to a pen and see what happens, every last one of you is so conceded and lazy that you will not even get off your asses and come out to one. You would rather post videos of people HUNTING coyotes on the outside and trying to correlate this to a fox pen. How stupid can you all be. I have asked several questions to Ceanna and she starts yapping about something completely different (they call that spin in politics). Liars have come on here and claimed that they went to a fox pen just the other day and then will not name the pen and who they went with or even put their own name up there. A seventeen year old little girl has come on here and run her mouth cussing about nothing more than testicals and rambling on and on about a spell checker. What a joke. If that’s all any of you have to say about a fox pen then I suggest all of you shut your mouths you might actually come across as a lot smarter that way. Maybe Jerry did stereotype you all as hippie tree hugging liberals, but you know what with what crap you put up on this board you sure as hell fit that stereotype to a T. You would think a lady that dedicates 22 years of her life as a zoo keeper of coyotes as Ceana has would come out here and actually see what goes on with her own eyes, instead of calling every game warden in the country and making excuses for coyote attacks. I would think that would be on my TO DO list as a coyote lover such as you. Until then I hope you really keep talking, because the more you try and act like you know something the more stupid and crazy you sound to the general public which works great if you ask me.
That's rich. You're going to defend every single stereotype that Jerry Thomas has come up with, call Magion "immature," and then go blahblahblahblahblah? Not a single thing that you've said can be considered even remotely intelligent or mature. What more do we want of you, you ask? Several things: a) grow up, b) back. your. statements. up. Even if the videos/pictures/links posted were not accurate, at least those disagreeing with you were making effort to provide information, some of you say you have proof, yet you refuse to post it (is this because you don't HAVE any?) c) stop pretending to be this all-wonderful, superior god and start looking at your own faults, d) stop pretending to be perfect, e) learn how to type. I don't normally pick at people for their spelling, though once again, I've noticed that all, except for one person, who are for penning seems to make a lot of glaring, and rather embarassing, errors. One or two is understandable, but I wonder how any of you can even use your computers. I am trying my hardest to maintain my neutral standpoint, but now I'm leaning more toward siding with the non-supporters just because none of you pro-hunting/penning people can debate properly to save your own skins. Accept the fact that you are not going to change anyones' opinions by repeatedly insulting and belittling them, and maybe this debate just might go somewhere. Magion, Mav and CeAnn at least had points to make. All three of them made attempts to back their statements up. Whether they were right or wrong, at this point, doesn't matter quite as much, because at least they were trying. If you really want to argue against them, provide evidence. This is possibly the worst debate I have ever come across, and I've seen some terrible ones. Don't think you have the right to be so high and mighty and condemn everyone else for being immature if you are going to hurl various obscenties and 'cheap shots.' To put it bluntly, nobody gives a flying pig's rear end if you've seen something for yourself. I could say I've seen fluffy pink dragons smoking cigars and playing twister. That's not going to fly in a debate. Now, if I made an attempt to back my claims, that might work. Even if I did not persuade the other side to support my side, at least I had put some effort and thought into proving my case. Matt Lee, you are a complete disgrace to the very side you stand for, not only because you are the biggest example of hypocrisy on this entire poll, but also because you cannot, for the life of you, find the guts to try and prove your own side. Instead, you have to descend to the level of personal attacks, extreme immaturity and obscenity, and some of the most ridiculous presumptions I've seen on here.
And, 'making excuses' for coyote attacks? Do you have any common sense at all? Just a tiny bit? Anyone should know not to leave their little toddle outside with fried chicken and a coyote that they've been feeding. If you want to call all who disagree with you as hippie coyote lovers, then I feel they have enough of a right to call you a monstrous coyote hater.
Keep it coming, guys. Really good material for my book. I love my job, making money off of fatuous extremists. Misanthrope, brilliant posts.
Since it's very obvious now that not a single one of you is going to back up anything you say at all with facts, I suppose I'll have to do it for you. Remember that I am not for or against penning. Please wait a minute for me to post the websites.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=53035853&Main=53025844
http://community.myfoxatlanta.com/blogs/RandyTravis/2007/11/23/Fox_pens_fair_hunt
http://www.svar.org/new_mom_kittens.html
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19910507&id=-LcMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TF8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5233,1122326
Also, when looking at those sites, please note that I was not attempting to prove or disprove either side (for or against penning). And don't flame me for posting any one of those sources. If you would like to argue against any of those websites, then get off your bottom and start finding your own sources to back yourself up. I'm not going to do all of the work for everyone.
-toddler, not toddle.
Last time I checked they will convict a person for murder on eye witness accounts. You have well over 100 eye witness accounts that a fox pen does nothing more than keep the dogs from running on property they don’t belong. But you would rather put up a chat room link, an article that was canceled due to the "source" being a proven liar, and information about illegal trapping activities. Do you seem to think that any of that crap is fact? Hey last time I checked this article was about should fox pens be legal or not. You are way off base on several of your points, which goes to prove that you are nothing but a lazy ill informed person, who would much rather put up links of stuff that has nothing to do with what goes on inside of a fox pen, than actually get off your lazy ass and go to a fox pen and see for your self what goes on. What you scared of? Are you scared to go outdoors in the woods? Don’t nock it unless you’ve tried it, ever heard that before? Probably not! Also please tell me what I did not type correctly, for I just a stupid redneck boy, I don’t claim to be half as intelligent as you think you are.
I can only access two of those sites because of my firewall at work. But my reply isn’t based exclusively on the links. I’ve seen a number of articles and comments comparing fox pens to dog fighting. It’s been making my blood boil for days. I’ve been pondering it for 3 days now. As I laid in bed last night thinking about it, I couldn’t let it continue without saying something. I assure you all that I am not an uneducated hick from the sticks. I’ve only been running dogs for a few years and actually started out keeping dogs strictly as companion and found the value of hunting with dogs and love it. While I never finished my first degree, I have studied natural resources at a State University level with intentions of becoming a conservation officer. I currently have a 1 University level business degree and I’m working on number 2 right now (I’m still not a very good writer though). Comparing fox penning to dog fighting is such a gross inaccuracy that it’s taken me days to even figure out where to start addressing this dire lack of understanding. The best analogy that I could come up with in the human world would be comparing UFC fighting to Xterra racing. Considering the obscurity of xterra racing, I feel that very few will understand the comparison. So I’m going to compare it to UFC fighting and marathon running (remember that early I stated that I’m also a tri athlete so I know quit a bit about marathon running). Dog fighting was an individual activity where two dogs were pitted against each other with the sole intent of causing as much bodily harm as possible. This is comparable to UFC fighting were two humans are pitted against each other with the intent of causing bodily harm. In fox penning the dogs are competing against each other in a game of speed and skill. The dogs are numbered because they are scored individually, just like a marathon runner is numbered because they are competing in a game of speed against other humans. The goal of the marathon runner is to navigate and run the course as fast as possible. The same is true for fox pen dogs. The course is the fox SCENT (not the fox itself) and their whole goal is to follow that sent as fast as possible. They are scored on speed and skill (tracking ability). The fox is simply laying down the coarse that the dogs are navigating buy un-intentionally leaving their scent behind. You have to understand that often times the dogs are just following the smell of the fox and don’t even see the actual animal. The fact that there is an actual live fox is irrelevant; the scent they leave behind is the prized possession. These are sent hounds and there is just no feasible way to reenact the trailing process in an artificial environment (believe me I’ve tried). Therefore as long as there are sent hounds there will be live game being trailed by them. Nobody has tried to say that accidents don’t happen were a fox is harmed. It’s an anomaly not the norm. There will always be anomalies in life and it’s not fair to judge an entire group of people, a sports or activity based on the anomalies. I know that some are going to think that I’m a crack pot and this is a stupidest comparison. While it’s not a perfect comparison it’s shows the obscurity between dog fighting and fox penning. They are so far from the same, it ridiculous and extremely disrespectful to accuse them of being the same.
The only thing I see is a need to lobby for is in the states that don't require escape havens 1 per 35 acres as the NCWRC requires to be implemented.I rather see these animals in these enclosures than hunted and shot, or worse poisioned 7 days a week.At least they do have plenty of food and a place to escape.Due to lose to live stock and pets NC has a year round open season.Somethiing has to give the predator,someones pet, or a farmers only way to feed in his family.Some where humanity should count for something and this is the factual reality of the situation.This is why phd level biologist advise not someone who has no clue.NC has a great team of biologist and are highily respected nationwide.They are doing what's best for NC which doesn't favor any one particular persons' slant.I was invited to attend one these hunts as an unbiased unknown observer as I do not hunt.Not one fox or coyote was caught in my 2 visits they switched off or went to the Required Safety Dens.I urge the lobbyist for these dens to be required in other states.I ask some of the trialers if it was good for the dogs to catch the prey.The answer was absolutely not as it was the sight and sounds of the race was more important.if they were to lose an animal that would be one less race. While there they raised almost $5000 dollars for a cancer victim.
Copied straight from our Master Rule book.
Rescue squad(s) shall be named and put in place before hounds are
cast and during all times that hounds are running. The number of
squads needed shall be determined by these Committees with
agreement of the Master of Hounds. Size of enclosure, availability of
cover, number of entries, an estimated count of game shall be the
factors used to determine how many squads shall be set in place.
b. Each rescue squad shall consist of at least two persons armed with
needed equipment to remove any game that might require assistance.
c. The Master of Hounds and all field trial judges must know and realize
that their first responsibility is to expend every effort within their ability
to protect the game animals being pursued. Their obligation to
maintain the ethical hunting environment within the enclosure
supersedes their duty to record the work of the hounds.
d. If before the prescribed hours of the field trial is up, the Master of
Hounds finds that the conditions of the running grounds may
jeopardize the safety of the game being pursued, he must try to
contact all of the field judges to call off the hunt and immediately crate
the hounds.
PDF created
seperate website
Swift fox can breed successfully in their first year and usually live from 3 to 6 years in the wild. (They can live up to 14 years in captivity).
seperate website on trapping/outside fox hunting.
(f) If, on the basis of its studies and other information available, the Wildlife Resources Commission determines the population of foxes in an area is fully adequate to support a harvesting of that population, the Wildlife Resources Commission may, upon passage of local legislation permitting same, open a season for taking foxes by trapping.
I could copy and paste crap all day long still dont mean nothing unless you have actually been to a fox pen. Until then I am gonna say nothing more than you dont have a clue what you are talking about, because obviously you dont!
I just found my way through twenty eight pages for NC rules and regulations for running pens. Most of the rules are concerned with paperwork for the state and that the dead animals are buried properly. There are rules for the size of the pen, but at the same time, under certain conditions, those can be waived. It is illegal to bring live coyotes and foxes in from other states, but yet, the State of NC didn't really enforce that until 2007 when the feds became involved. The biggest smuggler of the coyotes and foxes was Howard Blevins. He is from Asheville, NC. He is facing sixty eight counts in his inditment. (sp?) Mr. Blevins would make the rounds to IN, IL and other midwest states to pick up the live animals, he then would sell them to the running pens.
Size of the pen can be waived depending on what the owner of the pen is using the pen for, if he is using it for his own personal use and only having three or four dogs in it at a time then it is a private fox pen, obviously. Makes perfect sense to me. Did you also see where they have to have safe houses per acrea? I don’t know Howard Blevins from a hold in the wall, again this is spin to dodge what the conversation is supposed to be about. If you knew anything about law enforcement you would know anytime people commit crimes across state lines, it is the federal agents who’s jurisdiction it falls under. Same if they are trafficking drugs from one state to another, or coyotes. You make it sound like North Carolina wasn’t doing anything until 2007, WRONG! The federal Wildlife agents weren’t doing anything since 2007. North Carolina Wildlife agents jurisdiction stops at the border.
You know what Matt Lee? I am not even going to try to say this nicely, because you clearly are unable to be even civil with someone else if they are not worshiping the ground you walk on: Shut up, give up on your ridiculous little pity part, and get off your lazy ass. I said it right in my last post that if you wanted to throw a hissy fit over the sources provided, for all parties here, then you have to get off your own bottom and provide your own damn proof. I don't care about murder vs. fox pens. Murder isn't relevant to this. Provide some sort of proof that you're telling the truth, and maybe the other side will take you seriously. You could provide pictures of what fox pens look like, pictures of the animals (unharmed), pictures of the food they are given, etc. But instead you just whine about everyone else being against you and throw around insults. And then you tell people to visit your pen and use that as another excuse to insult them if they are unable to. Some people may not live in your state. Some people simply do not have the option of traveling, even if it isn't out of state. If I am remembering correctly, I know that at some point, someone (perhaps you) was invited to visit an animal shelter. And there never was a response to that. I also stated that I wasn't taking any sides, and that I was merely providing a few links because none of you feebleminded twits would do so. I am not lazy. And I promise you that I will not allow you to walk all over me like you did with Magion. Do not ever, EVER dare to insult me like that again. I get my way, whether you like it or not. Do not, for your own sake, make an enemy of me. You have to be the most irresponsible, lazy son of a bitch I've ever known. You're going to sit there and whine and throw a little temper tantrum because of a few links? Guess what, princess: there were two of them that maybe have backed up your statements. If you want whine about the links I provided, the do your own damn work. Don't you ever call me lazy again.
Don't bother for too long, Misanthrope. Everything Matt Lee accuses everyone else of doing is the exact same thing HE does himself. He can't be responsible for the things he says or does, so he has to try and put the blame on people who seem to have their shit together to make himself feel superior.
Well spoken, Brian Cain. I don't care much for penning, though I do respect you, for two reasons; taking the time to type out a reasonable response to those who you have disagreed with or have disagreed with you, and for not resorting to the childish antics many of us have fallen prey to.
Yes, Matt I did see that about the safe places, but didn't think it needed to be mentioned again. It has been mentioned several times in these posts. I don't think 35 acres per safe place is appropriate, but it is what it is according to your state. Why don't you do some of your own research to disprove anything I may say? Why don't you Google Howard Blevins? I was hoping to find something in the NC rules for running pens like AL has. Contact between dogs and coyotes and foxes in pens is against the law. Although the law in AL is often broken when no one is looking, at least it is there if anyone wants to use it.
Wow. I've never seen you lose patience like that before, Misanthrope. Now you see what I went through. I agree on most of your points. Same with Mav and ceann.
Here’s my take on this “providing proof” issue. We have two sides that are primarily trying to communicate if two different mediums. We have one side that is versed in technology and acquires a great deal of their “proof” via the computer. Then there’s the side that is versed in real world interactions. You see cyberspace isn’t real. I can value the skill it takes to hunt down and gather all this information via the internet. Unfortunately this information is “generally” gained second hand (actually it’s usually far more than second hand). This information can be and has been taken out of context. Very few people that posses this information actually knows the truth behind it. They don’t know the factors that contributed to it and the intent of the originator. The other side of the argument is offering to communicate in the form of real world evidence gathering, by simply seeing for your self. This is how they communicate because it’s what they specialize in. It’s ironic and rather disheartening that the technology savvy side will make light of and some times make fun of the lack of technology skills by one side, then demand them to show them proof in a techno form. Yet you’ve already make sure that everyone know that the other side is lacking in this skill. It’s not a fair argument to accuse someone of a wrong doing because they cannot provide you proof of defense in the form of medium that you want it to be in. I can put this into an analogy for you. I can acquire pictures and video of crimes (whether that be legal, moral or ethical) being committed around the country. I can then send this “evidence” to the local law enforcement and inform them that there is a crime being committed and they must do something about it. But here’s how our legal system works. Crimes must be investigated in real life. The “evidence” acquired via the internet must be corroborated with real life facts in order for this “evidence” to be usable. This is where this debate is not just. Those that are accusing other of such moral or ethical crimes only have un-corroborated “evidence”. It’s not feasible for people to travel to the place that this crime supposedly happened in order to corroborate their evidence. Yet they will still feel they are entitled to accuse someone of a crime despite the fact that they do not possess any evidence tying the accused to the crime. If someone is accused of a crime and their defense is to offer anyone the opportunity to come and investigate this crime for themselves, well than this trumps “internet evidence”. You see the “internet evidence” doesn’t mean anything without the real world facts. My suggestion would be this. If you don’t have corroborated evidence then I suggest you not accuse someone of a crime. I would be willing to bet that many of you would not like to be attacked and accused of doing something that you did not do, don’t agree with and have time and again offered to prove wrong. What’s that golden rule… “don’t treat others how you won’t want to be treated”. If you don’t have first hand proof then you have no place accusing. I’ll tie this into this debate. There are those that are arguing that what’s going on in fox pens is wrong. Yet they do not know what actually goes on in a fox pen and are basing their accusation on un-substantiated evidence. If the evidence is corroborated, then by all means, stand up for what you believe in. But until it is, you really have nothing to stand on and are just being mean spirited by irresponsibly projecting negative perspective on what could very well be innocent people. You’ll have to forgive my spelling and grammar; I’m in a bit of a hurry.
My unsubstantiated evidence, as you call it, came directly fron Indianas Department of Natural Resources Investigative Department when they participated in a run on the pens along with the Feds. They were even there when Howard Blevins was arrested. That along with the video from Fox News Atlanta sealed the fate of the running pens. I am bowing out of this conversation. In Solidarity For God's Dog CeAnn Lambert
ceann,
That gives the Indiana Department of Natural Resources and Feds the right to accuse the people that they have evidence on. If there were wrong doings, then they have every right to prosecute. Did this evidence state that every fox pen in the state of North Carolina was operating in an illegal manner? Did this evidence also state that every person that participates in fox pens is doing something illegal? I’m not directing this just at you, but everyone. There are hundreds of running pens across the country. This means that there are thousands of people participating, but only a hand full of pieces of “internet evidence”. That works out to a tiny fraction or piece of the overall picture. Yet the entire picture is being judge by a few small pieces.
Oh and ceann I do commend you for actually having some form of evidence and actively pursing more. I’d be willing to bet that you are one of, if not the only one on here that actually has any substantial amount. I’m willing to bet that there are others on here that have none or next to none, yet feel compelled to still accuse people based on assumptions. You at least do the leg work and that I respect.
Wow I copy and paste three aricles off of three different sites, I post a direct quote from our rule book up here and all you can focus in on is the fact I called you lazy. Until you quite jacking your jaws about something you have never been to and actually go to it, you are lazy and ill informed. You are lazy because of the lack of effort you are putting forth before you form an opinion in your mind. Its irresponsible to even bother debating to someone else when all you can do is copy and paste different links. I am sorry I discredited your links but they had no credibility. One is a forum style which is the same darn thing as this is. One contains yes graphic video, but like I said earlier it is "hunting" not pen running, and one is about trapping, which doesnt concern me in either way, as long as the foxes/coyotes are bought in NC I dont really care. You see I dont care about what happens in Indiana, or Illinois or any other state that's not any of my business. Imagine that. So get on here and beat your chest and rant and rave that I dont need to piss you off. I could give a crap less. I spoke from a eye witness point of view, just like several hundred other hunters that have came on here and spoken from an eye witness point of view. Its not our faults you call it a debate just to see how many links you can copy and paste on here. I invite any of you to come run dogs with me at any time. If I thought it was inhumane or a some sort of "blood sport" I wouldnt be doing it. Period. I also spoke about eye witnesses (not murder in general) in fox pens as comparison, you see believe it or not in the criminal justice system they allow witnesses. You have well over a hundred witness on here saying the same thing over and over again, but yet you still keep rambling on and on.
It's lazy and irresponsible to form an opinion of something based off of research....um, dip shit, do you have any sort of reading skills or sense at all? Misanthrope said it himself that he doesn't have an opinion on fox penning and that he was only providing those links because none of you stubborn jackasses would even try to back anything up. Get your head out of your ass and look around. Not many people actually oppose your 'sport.' You have so thoroughly threatened, bullied, and abused every single person that views something differently than you, so now, when someone comes on here who is NOT on either side and actually tries to HELP you, you act like such a pig over it. I checked all of the links Misanthrope provided. One of them was another discussion on penning, and there are people, who were HUNTERS on there, who even said themselves that the animals in fox pens don't get killed. If people who actually enjoy killing animals for shits and giggles will go onto their own forum and say it themselves, that may just mean something. Misanthrope has not called it a blood sport or hunting. Misanthrope has not claimed to be well informed. He even said that he doesn't know enough to judge either way. Instead of acting like a two year old on drugs, why don't you step back and look at your behavior and for once, probably in your entire life, take responsibility for your behavior. You are certainly old enough to do so. You call Magion immature, yet you, an ADULT, are acting far less mature. She's acting better most in her age group. And Misanthrope? He could have been an ally. He was trying to help all sides, even yours, and you stooped to possibly the lowest level of arrogance I have ever witnessed on the internet. Stop it already with this B.S. oh, I've been there, so I magically know everything and I'm better than everyone else. I could say I was at a fox pen. That doesn't make everything I say right. Take photos of things that happen in the pens. Back. Your. Fucking. Claims. Up. You. Waste. Of. Oxygen. Excuse. Of. A. Human. Being. It's filth like you that make this world such a disgusting mess. No, not because you have an opinion based off of personal experiences, but because you are such a blind fool and you think you're this all-wonderful being and everyone else is wrong and must bow down and kiss your toes.
That's enough. Matt Lee, get your filthy head out of your ass and get a serious reality check. Misanthrope has not claimed to be against penning, nor has he called it a blood sport. In fact, few people have. And no, there have not been 'hundreds' of people on here for penning. It's been mostly the same people arguing over and over again. I doubt there has even been 1 hundred people on here arguing on the side of penning. You have the nerve to call Magion an immature "little girl, and if I ever meet you in real life, you'd better hope I take mercy on you for that. You, however, are an ADULT. You're accusing everyone who is not kissing your ass of being stupid and irresponsible, but you aren't even going to look at your own actions and take responsiblity for them. Misanthrope has not said he is for or against penning. He even posted a few links that could have helped helped your case. Instead, you chased away someone who may have been an ally. You are so full of yourself that you're blinding yourself and shutting yourself away from people that could be helpful to your cause. Of all the levels of immaturity I have ever seen on the internet, yours is probably the worst example. I prefer to call people like you oxygen thieves.
My computer is so slow. It shut down when I typed my first message, so I had to retype it and then it did something weird when I posted my second one.
Wel said David finally something that made sense.Just cause you have a bad apple doesn't make it right to sterotype an entire group of people this is just as bad bias or discrimination in a sense.DAVIDS QUOTE "The only thing I see is a need to lobby for is in the states that don't require escape havens 1 per 35 acres as the NCWRC requires to be implemented.I rather see these animals in these enclosures than hunted and shot, or worse poisioned 7 days a week.At least they do have plenty of food and a place to escape.Due to lose to live stock and pets NC has a year round open season.Somethiing has to give the predator,someones pet, or a farmers only way to feed in his family.Some where humanity should count for something and this is the factual reality of the situation.This is why phd level biologist advise not someone who has no clue.NC has a great team of biologist and are highily respected nationwide.They are doing what's best for NC which doesn't favor any one particular persons' slant.I was invited to attend one these hunts as an unbiased unknown observer as I do not hunt.Not one fox or coyote was caught in my 2 visits they switched off or went to the Required Safety Dens.I urge the lobbyist for these dens to be required in other states.I ask some of the trialers if it was good for the dogs to catch the prey.The answer was absolutely not as it was the sight and sounds of the race was more important.if they were to lose an animal that would be one less race. While there they raised almost $5000 dollars for a cancer victim.
Well I must say I have done my job. I am in love with the fact that you are on here cussing and babbling about me and how sorry a piece of shit I am. I would much rather you do that than throw out copy and pasted crap that has nothing to do with the inside of a fox pen. It is comical that I can upset you so much that you will cuss as you type though. I am sorry I called your information crap, but I am brutally honest, and refuse to kiss any ones ass. I tried to put information out there; you ignored all three of the items and just tried to keep up with my few jabs at you with an entire three paragraphs. Also you said no one has called our great sport a blood sport huh? Allow me to try the copy and paste method again, to this slanderous talk:
This is a bloodsport that must be stopped
impacts the bloody "sport" of hunting creates.
This is "bloodsport".
This is a free country and that is why we can try to stop this "bloodsport."
WELL I'm giving up this blood sport and going back to kicking puppies in the head. THANKS
That was just what I felt like looking for, there are more up there. You defiantly do not know me if you think I am exactly what you said up there. But then again you don’t know the inside of a fox pen either. I promise you I do more for the resources of North Carolina in a week than any of you have done in your life’s. Buts its cool I got big shoulders I can take all the cussing and crack shots at me you throw out. Its rather entertaining, and I am damn happy to take it over false information. I would be glad to review any more information you want to throw up there and relate it to my own personal experiences in a fox pen.
Wonderful reading skills. I didn't say that NOBODY called it a blood sport. I said that Misanthrope didn't. Anyhow, I'm just going to leave. I have better uses for my time, and I'd rather not waste any more time on scurrilous creatures like you. I was going to just stop fighting against penning, since I'm not really strongly in support of either side, although now I think I'll fight against it just for the pure enjoyment of seeing you suffer.
LET THE SLAMS AGAINST ME BEGIN! wasn't going to post, but I have to give kudos to Matt. You have figured out what I have been trying to say this whole time. If they cant beat you with FACTS, or answer your questions with FACTS, then they just call you names, belittle youR education, or change the subject. They tell you they have FACTS, when you ask for them or De-bunk them, they move on to something else, or CALL YOU STUPID. LEFT-WING WEB SITES DO NOT PROVIDED FACTS...Like I said; I can post a web site that shows the devil eating ICE-CREAM, just to try and prove it ain't hot in HELL. while they watch youtube and think they got it figured out, we go and HAVE things figured out. So come on ladies, let me have it. Every one of you have called me a: homophobic, religious zellic, blood thirsty, pro life, gun tot-en red neck who is uneducated.So what's next? Come on my shoulders are big too.
"nor has he called it a blood sport. In fact, FEW PEOPLE HAVE." Last time I checked a period means you are starting a new sentence. I was just showing it was more than a few people have slanderously called it a blood sport. That is copy and pasted from your quote, damn hooked on phonics works for me. You couldnt fight your way out of a wet paper bag, you would just cuss at it and fuss about the amount of trees it took to make it. The truth hurts, sorry.
Its all good Jerry. I tried to relay my personal experiences in a fox pen, they wouldnt listen, and said, "all hunters are just saying the same thing over and over again." Imagine that! So I tried it their way with the copy and paste method and they ignored that too. But I look at a few links they put up and try to explain that is not a fox pen or has nothing to do with a fox pen, and they throw down the high school lunch room arugments ("You. Waste. Of. Oxygen. Excuse. Of. A. Human. Being" )type crap. Its ridiculous. I am not gonna sit here and shugar coat it and say that was "great" information because it wasnt it was crap. I can honestly say they can attack me all they want. I could care less and it kind of amuses me. But they improperly attack my livelyhood and I am gonna give them hell. The main problem is they dont know me to attack me properly and they dont know the inside of a fox pen to attack it properly either. I commend you Jerry on offering to pay for that ladies plane ticket and to take her to a fox pen. You would think that someone that dedicated their lives to the "studying" of coyotes would not turn down an offer like that.
Well Matt, you nor I will change Ceanns mind on this. And frankly I dont blame her. She has nothing but opinion in this fight. This skirt chasin congressman from Wake county with the bow tie is the problem. funny thing is, All his info can be De-Bunked too. this " proof" he has is the same pictures Ceann has. Same web-sites. Same propaganda. Proving him wrong , will be like " shooting fish in a barrel", to us his words. As far as these other 3 YO YO's. Their not old enough to vote anyway. I dont think they are even from NC. Maybe they are, but they sure didnt grow up in my neighborhood, cause with language like that , they would be using SOAP for tooth paste.
The bow tied fella I did have to laugh at, "take the fence's away and see how ole rover will do then." He really showed his stupidity there, last time I checked they been "hunting" and killing foxes and coyotes on the outside forever, but we take em put em in a thousans acrea pen, feed em, heart worm em and aint even trying to kill one of em and all we want is for our hounds to not get run over and this idiot comes on here and seems to think we are some sort of cruel inbreed hicks. Best thing he can do is stay in Wake county with stupidity like that. It makes me so angry I shake to think that this guy has proposed other legislation with no knowledge at all of what he is talking about. No wonder our unemployment rate is 10.7 % and this idiot is worried to death about ole rover and a stinkin coyote. Their stupidity really showed on this one. I am sure the human society showed him that same stupid video of some hounds killing a coyote on the OUTSIDE, OUT OF STATE, and what that angry divorced lady down south had to say, and they some how got this idiot on the band wagon with that. I thought our elected officals were smart enough to not jump on the first band wagon they saw and listin to both sides of the story or maybe even go to a pen first, before they actually tried to make law out of false information. Ahh well I am gonna go run my hounds in a fox pen this evening. Jerry I will let you know how many bears I tie up by their feet.
Instead of making derogatory remarks about peoples' age and gender, why don't you just try and prove them wrong? You don't even know how old Mav and Misanthrope are, you just know that Magion is 17. For all you do know, she could be turning 18 today or tomorrow. The world doesn't revolve around you, and you aren't entitled to respect. You have to earn it, and almost none of you, whether you support penning or not, are earning that respect. Of course things are going to get heated on here, but good grief.
Jerry and Matt: Have either one of you seen the Fox News tapes about the running pens in the south. If not and you can open FLV files, I will send you copies. Those tapes will show you what you are fighting. They are brutal and it isn't going to matter whether they were in GA, AL or NC. To the public, all running pens are just like the ones in the tape. Plus, the man who supplied the coyotes and foxes to the pens, illegally is from NC. If you could look at those video and see what the public sees, you will know what you are up against.
Ceanna if its the one with the story from Georgia it was a tape of someone hunting coyotes on the outside, and a story of a divorce'e from georgia and a fox pen. The way I was informed the video wasnt even from a fox pen it was coyotes hunted on the outside, however the story was about the fox pens in Georgia, the atlanta news just tryed to hype up the story with that video. Please do send it to me and I will take a look at it (cooldud16@hotmail.com), but unless I see a fence I am sure it is on the outside. I know we are in for a fight on this one. But I am going to exercise any and all means to win that fight, it is my livelyhood and other than my family it is what I work every week for. Is to enjoy the sound of my dogs running. I mean I know some people might think thats crazy but then again they might think a lady with seven coyotes as pets is crazy, I mean everyone is different, but I like to think if I respect your rights you would respect my rights also. I just ran 16 hounds last night in a 150 acrea pen I saw many foxes and coyotes, I followed my hounds in the pen on a four wheeler all night long and I promise you not a single coyote or fox was harmed. I seen coyotes and foxes asleep next to their feeders, while my dogs ran. These animals are by no means dumb and know how to duck the dogs if they choose to. But its not fair for me to run them on deer this time of year as they have new born babies in the woods, and its not fair for me to have to keep my dogs in their pens either. They wanna run, and I wanna hear them run. So please just let me let them run. And reason the only way I can prove any one wrong is for them to come out and run some dogs with me, and you talk about respect, none of those people will have my respect as long as they talk like that and do not post their real names on this board!
Things just became harder for you guys. Go to lex18.com Read the first news story.
It isn't even logical that you should expect to always see a fence on nine hundred acres.
Didnt become any harder for me, see unlike some people I try and worry about the business in my own freaking state! Imagine that one there indiana. If you dont know if there is a fence or not why in the world are you trying to bring it up in a discussion about FOX PENS!!! It isnt logical for you to even be in this conversation considering you have never been to a fox pen and dont know anything about one other than what you can find on youtube and a few blurbs here and there. However I do think that whoever did tape the foxnews outside hunt should be ashamed conseriding they did not make an attempt to even help the yote and never bothered to put the camera down. But then again that is why I dont hunt fox or coyotes on the outside, I run the pen and deer hunt.
Hey guys. Here is a thought. With the big raid in KY and West Virgina and Mr Blevins from NC being involved in the smuggling of coyotes and foxes to stock the live bait running pens. How do you know that sometime during a hunt in the pens, the pens may be raided and not only the foxes and coyotes would be confiscated, but your dogs could also be taken, because they would say that the dogs could have been exposed to diseases from the coyotes and foxes. Is that a possibility? You say you love your dogs, but aren't you "skating on thin ice?"
First of all Ceann these fox pens are permited by the NCWRC and meet all their requirements.The coyotes down east in NC are home grown.Ceann trialers if they could have a vote would want the lives of coyotes and foxes saved and would support any law that prohibited any shooting of these animals with a gun .Trialers run dogs not for the kill but the hound work and sound they make.In fact most guys I know will brake the pack off a run and get the dogs on a different fox to insure he stays in good shape.Many of us will not run dogs in bad winter weather to save the fox and coyotes from stress and keep feed out even in the wild to help their survival.This Mr.Bevins should be prosecuted no doubt,but you can't label everyone as bad apples because of one that has chosen to take shortcuts.They obviousily must be short on game in that part of the state as their is no shortage here.Ceann their are 2 types that keep hounds hunters/killers that choose in the wild to kill what they feel like are a menace to deer and livestock or they may have a pet killed by a yote.The trialers that run these refuges or pens do not usually rub shoulders much with the killers.In fact some of the do gooders that host these charitable events would be happy that someone is trying to protect coyotes and foxes.I personally wish it were a fine if you allowed your dogs to catch one.This is why the safety escape havens were installed.I believe in protecting the very animal that brings you the most joy and plays their game on your hounds.I agree some inprovements could be made but not to ban these refuges unless an individual operator is connected to a crime as the case Mr.Blevins ie Permit Revocations an Option.Stevie
Stevie, It may be unfair, but society is not going to make a distinction between good running pens and bad running pens. The evidence is piling up against these pens. If they didn't have to replace so many coyotes and foxes, there wouldn't be this illegal trafficking in coyotes and foxes that have sprung up. Trappers in Indiana were the biggest suppliers of live coyotes and foxes to the running pens. We have stopped it for seven months of the year. I am working on stopping it the rest of the year. One IN trapper gave up his vet. license, because he was making almost $100,000 selling live coyotes and foxes to the southeastern running pens. This idiot actually bragged about this on the internet. Now, he blames me for taking away his ability to make a living. Maybe NC is different. Maybe, some of the running pens in NC are different. I don't know. In the end, it isn't going to matter. We will stop the selling of coyotes and foxes to the running pens. Did you read in the article about cutting the tails off of the coyotes? You or Matt neither one took umbrage or even commented on this abusive practice. Yet, you say you care abot the coyotes and foxes used in the pens.
Ceanna our hunting club alone shot several coyotes during hunting season, NO NOT IN A PEN! In our deer hunting club, I went out the other night and heard a pack of them howling up a storm on our hunting club. I promise you the population of them is strong in North Carolina, with or without some sort of illegal underground coyote trade. I was not able to open the lex18 if that was were it was about someone cutting their tails off? I think that might be another one of your tieing bears up by their legs type stories. Unhealthy, injured, or missing a tail on a coyote, does not do a fox pen owner any good and it only takes common sense to know that one.
Back to web version Saturday, Apr 11, 2009
Posted on Fri, Apr. 10, 2009
8 coyotes seized; Waco man, others charged in sting
By Ashlee Clark
aclark@herald-leader.com
WACO — An investigation that began in Virginia nearly two years ago uncovered what officials say was an illegal underground coyote and fox trade that spilled into at least five other states, including Kentucky.
Kentucky Fish and Wildlife officers made six arrests in Central and Eastern Kentucky Friday, including that of a Madison County man. At least 831 charges have been filed in connection with the two-year sting.
Officials say it is legal to trap or hunt wild animals, but it is illegal to buy or sell wild animals in Kentucky.
Investigators spent about 45 minutes Friday morning collecting eight coyotes from the property of George Hill, 57, of Waco.
Hill was arrested and charged with four counts of illegally buying wildlife and 11 counts of illegal possession. He was taken to the Madison County jail, and later released on a $1,000 unsecured bond. Hill faces up to $7,500 in fines.
Conservation officer Jim Harrison said Hill kept the coyotes in a 30 by 40 foot enclosure on his property.
"It was nothing but mud and feces, as you can imagine," he said.
Harrison said Hill's coyotes would be released into a 200-acre fenced-in field where they were chased by foxhounds.
Officials say coyotes and foxes are captured in the wild, and then traded across state lines. They can go for as much as $100 to be used for a chase.
The chase typically involves packs of hounds that are released inside fenced enclosures where they pursue the coyotes and foxes, sometimes for hours, until the wild animals are captured and killed, said Casey Pheiffer, the campaign manager for the wildlife abuse campaign with the Humane Society.
Pheiffer says thousands of coyotes and foxes are used in the chases that take place underground throughout the Southeast and parts of the Midwest. The owners of the coyotes and foxes typically charge as much as $25 for dogs to be entered into the chase, Pheiffer said.
The coyotes in Waco were the only animals seized in the operation. They will be taken to a holding facility as evidence until the case makes its way through the court system, Harrison said.
The investigation into animal trafficking in Kentucky began in July 2007, according to the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources. Virginia officers notified Kentucky officials that an Asheville, N.C. man who was part of a trafficking investigation had made frequent and routine stops in Kentucky.
Undercover officers said they witnessed suspects buying and selling live foxes and coyotes during a 20-month investigation.
In addition to Hill, five other people were arrested in Johnson, Grant and Lee counties on charges of buying, selling or assisting in the illegal sale of wildlife. Officers also plan to make an arrest in West Virginia in relation to the investigation.
Those who were arrested Friday were:
• Forest D. "Tony" Hall, 69, of Sitka in Johnson County
• Elbridge Cook, 62, and Michael Ellis, 62, both of Corinth in Grant County
• James Auxier, 41, of East Point in Johnson County
• Charles Creech, 73, of Beattyville in Lee County
Thomas Hymer, 78, of Irvine in Estill County, and Clustena Hall, 70, of Sitka, were served summonses to appear in Madison District Court and Johnson District Court, respectively.
Mark Marraccini, spokesman for the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources, said the suspects face misdemeanor charges that are subject to fines rather than jail time. The fines range from $2,000 to $282,000.
Marraccini says Creech, who is accused of cutting off the tales of coyotes to make it harder for dogs to catch them, is the only suspect who could be facing jail time. He has been charged with seven counts of cruelty to animals, nine counts of illegally possessing wildlife without a permit, and seven counts of
Other than some illegal trapping/trading, and before I bash this atricle please explain to me what this has to do with North Carolina Fox Pens, for I do not want to go off topic with this? Are you trying to point out what the human society said? Imagine that they had something bad to say about it, no big suprise there.
I would think this article more relevant than one about illegal trapping activites:
It's not unusual for a lot of visitors to the South to wonder what these large, fenced sections of woodlands that have signs proclaiming them to be a "Fox Preserve" are.
Having grown up here in the eastern part of North Carolina, I knew that the pens held foxes but I have to admit that I didn't really understand exactly what it was that was going on there. I knew that sportsmen took their fox hounds there to let them chase foxes inside the enclosure but that's about as far as my knowledge of the mission of fox pens went.
When a friend invited me to attend a large occasion (let's call it a "fox chase" or a "field trial") at the Bay City Fox Preserve located near Bayboro, it gave me the chance to see for myself just what was going on in one of these fox pens.
George Jones and Ronnie Ireland, the owners of the Bay City Fox Preserve, directed my novice's questions at one of the dog owners while they went about overseeing the event with the Hound Master, Frankie Martin.
Terry Smith of Greenville proved to be quite patient as he attempted to answer the questions I had.
The occasion was the Fourth Annual Fox Chase, Speed and Drive. The field trial was sponsored by the Vandemere United Methodist Church and was held to raise money for cancer research through the well-known Relay For Life. It's well-known that some schools and charities have raised considerable sums of money through fishing tournaments and deer hunts but using a field trial for fox hounds as a fundraiser is both effective and interesting.
After four years of successfully sponsoring this event, it's obvious that the Vandemere United Methodist Church in cooperation with the Bay City Fox Preserve know what they're doing.
The "trial" began at 6:30 in the morning when some 149 fox hounds with large numbers painted on their sides were released inside a wooded 350-acre tract enclosed by a fence. The object of the chase was to let the hounds pursue red foxes, gray foxes and coyotes and be graded for their individual hunting abilities and skills. The winners are rewarded with spectacular trophies and the Relay for Life benefits from the $25 (per dog) registration fee that the dog's owners pay.
Several foxes and coyotes had been released inside the enclosed area for the specific purpose of being chased by the dogs. This is not a contest to see which dogs are best at killing foxes. As a matter of a fact, it's considered to be very undesirable to have one of the dogs even harm one of the foxes. Some describe it as being a contest between dog owners, trainers and their dogs to see whose dogs were best bred and trained for the specific job of chasing foxes.
Before any animal lovers get all bent out of shape about the poor coyotes or foxes, let me stress that there is no intention on the part of the field trial for the foxes or coyotes to be harmed. To quote one of the contest officials, "If the dogs should harm one of the animals they're chasing, that part of the chase is instantly over. The foxes and coyotes are valuable to the owners of the fox pens and we don't want them to be harmed."
There are small, man-made, enclosures within the pen where coyotes or foxes could find a safe haven when they want to get away from the dogs. The dogs can't get close to them in these dog-proof escape pens and, according to some, the foxes actually enjoy the chase.
The foxes have been observed leaving these safe areas and taunting the dogs into beginning another chase. If the foxes don't want to be chased any more they simply returned to their safe area and stay there until the hounds have been removed from the fenced area.
The actual fox pen has gravel roads that follow the line of the fence that completely encompasses the area. More roads cross within the enclosed area.
continued...............
Stationed at strategic points on the interior and perimeter roads were judges that graded the individual dogs on their performance as they chased foxes. The judges observed the numbered dogs' actions as they crossed the roads or trails and graded the dogs' individual performance levels accordingly.
Such things as the dogs' voice, running ability, pack leadership, ability and stamina were scored by the judges, placed on a score sheet and relayed to the central bookkeeping spot where computers were used to keep a running account of each dog's score.
The foxes and coyotes were released in the pen under the strict supervision and licensing of the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission and, between chases, were well fed and rested. The owners of the fox preserve actually purchase the animals from professional trappers for the specific purpose of creating well organized field trials. This is a sporting event that's quite different from the type of fox hunting that formerly occurred in England where the animals could to be killed by the dogs.
After the competition ended at just before noon, the dogs' owners began the process of gathering in their dogs and the members of the Vandemere United Methodist Church began their part of the festivities.
This was a well-attended event that attracted several hundred onlookers along with the owners and trainers of the fox hounds. Numerous youngsters were among the onlookers and the Vandemere UMC even supplied the youngsters with small trophies noting their attendance at the event.
Three pigs had been roasting on a grill for hours and several tables were laden with some of the finest cakes and pies that the ladies of the church had cooked to be auctioned to raise money for the Relay for Life cause. Other tables contained door prizes (and several tons of dry dog food in 50 pound bags) for the raffle. All money raised through the field trial went directly to the Relay for Life fund. More than $5,000 was raised for the Relay for Life and cancer research.
Be it hunting deer, bear, quail, ducks or foxes and coyotes with the aid of dogs, this is a sport that's deeply rooted in the United States and particularly, in the south.
There are numerous wildlife conservation organizations that support hunting with dogs and even contribute to the North Carolina Sporting Dogs Association which lobbies the Legislature on the behalf of those dog hunters.
This story is from the Herald news paper and had a non biased report come out and actually take part in a field trial the Baycity fox pen was conducting.
Prove to me what goes on inside the wire. Send me videos, send me pictures. You are always wanting me to prove what I say and then you just ignore or disparage it. It is about time, you came up with some proof. I don't care about churches, I don't care about how much money is given away. I don't care about trophies. I don't care about, "doesn't happen very often." I don't care about "It is not the intent to hurt the animals." Produce for me the paper work from a NC fox pen that shows how many coyotes and foxes were killed last year. Prove to me how often the owner has to "fresh the game" Prove to me that NC pens are different!
you were already invited on several occasions to go to a fox pen its not our fault you are too crazy to leave indiana, or posibbly treating your mange. I would say 80% of the people that own or run in them dont get on a computer, so I can just google that information like you can illegal trappers (which concidently does not have anything to do with the morality of a north carolina fox pen). You wont proof, get up off your tail and come out to NC and go to a fox pen. "I dont care about churches", that was obvious from the start, you care about nothing BUT YOUR ANIMAL RIGHTS AGENDA.
God damn it, stop bringing up animal rights and religion! You keep asking everyone who disagrees with you for proof, but you NEVER provide anything. Since you visit these pens so often, why don't you pull your ass away from the computer and get some pictures? Or videos? Papers? Get some reading skills and common sense, please. And not everyone can visit NC. People have lives, believe it or not. And some people may not have the time or money.
Mav, tone it down please. Though I do agree with you and CeAnn.
matt stop wasting your time on these folks. all along they been saying stop bring up the ushs. that they are not part of it. how ever ceeann just post some of there info.she allso say that it is not smart to feed wild critters but it is not what she does at her house. she has a few MARKS like mav and magion that what so bad to be right about something. they both just keep trying to put them self over. (no one but we can spell, no one but we can us a computer, we are so cool you are not ,look at us, look at us )just get over your self. no body care what a no job, no voting, no tax paying kids thinks, last time i look this was about N.C. if you dont live there stay out of there. get a life and move on. or take the offer and see for your self. o. that right it allway easyer to hate something you know nothing about.
Aw, sweetheart, you obviously DO care if you keep bringing up my age. Seriously, stop bringing up my @#%@ing age. I could be turning 18 today, or tomorrow, like Voice of Reason said. You don't know my exact age. All you know is that a while ago, I said I was 17, and I'm not going to make excuses for my existence. I am not going to apologize for something that I shouldn't have to apologize for. You don't hear me calling you "old geezer" or "little boy." And don't ASSume that I don't have a job. You just keep sinking lower and lower, and instead of backing your comments up, you just throw pathetic 'insults' at me solely because I'm younger than you. Bubba, I doubt you're even an adult. Stay on topic. This is going too far, and I don't take kindly to insults. If you have any self respect, then act mature. You want to say you're better than me? Prove it. Act your age. Your REAL age. I brought up my age ONCE. And you idiots keep bringing it up to bash me. You have no valid points to make, so you just dish out ridiculous comments about my age. Don't you ever dare call me a kid again. EVER. You do NOT want to mess with me. And Mav and Misanthrope are not kids, and they are not 17. I've said it probably a billion times on this topic now; if you don't want people to make arseumptions about you, dont make arseumptions about people just because you can't handle different opinions. It's called reality. And reality doesn't have to coddle you. You are not the center of the universe. There will be people who disagree with you, on the internet and in real life. I haven't attacked any of you nearly as much as you have me. And to think, I almost apologized. You are carrying this much to far. This harassment must stop. You keep saying that you're the mature ones, but if you have to call me a 'kid' and 'little girl,' then you have a long way to go before you can ever hope to call yourself mature. Can we talk about this like reasonable adults, or do you need to have a grown up hold your hand through this? I am willing to listen to your side. But you have to be willing to meet me half way. I would like a truce, but I will not bend over backwards for people who can't even try to be responsible or respectful. I left a forum because of exactly this; the abuse. I don't have to take this, and I refuse to. I have lost all patience with you people. If you would provide some sort of evidence to prove your case, and if you would rise above the level of petty assumptions and crude insults, I would listen. So, how will you have it? Do you want to harass and abuse everyone you come across, rather than educate them? Or will you step up, be a person (NOT a troll), and grow up a little? Most of us, me included, took this too far. But at least I am willing to take responsibility for my actions earlier, and I'm not belittling you because of your age or gender, or religious affiliation. None of that matters to me. I don't care what age, religion, or sex you are. I don't. I want to learn something about this subject, whether it's from you or CeAnn, or both. Before preaching to people about being open minded and mature, you should try doing just that. Even if you disagree with CeAnn, it wouldn't harm you to think for a moment about the other side, instead of just brushing everything of because you may not agree with it.
*too and off
if you what to know what goes on in a fox pen, then go to one kid.
hey kid do you kiss your mamma with that mouth? guess what my friends call me? bubba no trolls here. if you what to know what goes on in a fox pen then go to one.
Well magellen and mallet I thought you had given up but you are back to babbling and cussing again. If you dont live in North Carolina, refuse to visit North Carolina, or refuse to visit a North Carolina Fox pen, please just shut your stupid mouths, you are nothing but illinformed, and need to mind your own business, for it obviously does not concern you enough to put forth any effort to visit one, so why does a fox pen even concern you? My comment was directed at Ceanna who claims to have dedicated her life to a mangie coyote so you would think she would put forth enough effort to see with her own eyes what happens in a fox pen, I mean after all it is supposedly her lifes work right? I havent heard any sort of proof from either one of you all you are both usefull for is spell checking what I type. Magellen you think you could do that on monday when you go back to school. I posted an article wrote from a non biased reporter who went to the baycity fox pen and ceanna made no comment on it other than she doesnt care about churches or trophies. News flash the guy was a unbiased reporter from the herald who wrote the article not a hunter. It told exactly what happens in a fox pen every freaking time we run in one. But she dismissed it, just like the Human society dissmisses it, so to me she is in the same pot as the animal rights activiest. I just told her I dont have fancy statistics about how many foxes or coyotes are killed or how many are bought, or any of that crap, I dont know anyone who has those numbers, and no I am not going to get on here and post photos and videos for you people whom are too lazy to even bother going to one. I posted information now you want photos. Why bother? If I post photos all you will do as say those were cropped, or those are fake. You both are jokes and were alot better off not typing anything. Bubba I am gonna keep typing on here until they shut up, because I am not giving up on fox pens, in any and every right, I have spoke with my elected officials, and sent out letters, I have done everything I can do to perserve my rights, even argue with these fools. So yall let the cussing and spell checking roll. I can take it all day long.
right on matt or should i have said write on? just dont what to see you waste any more time on these KIDS they hate it when you call them that lol. i been to N.C. fox pens i know what happens. they will never know intill they go
Magion, don't bother responding to them. As someone said in a book I know you're crazy about (Kimurial, is that it?), "you spend too much time justifying yourself to your inferiors." If they don't have any proof, then they don't have any proof. And bubba, I am not a kid. I'm probably far older than you are.
"If I post photos all you will do as say those were cropped, or those are fake." I won't. And I don't think Magion or CeAnn will, either. So far, you're the one who is acting like that any time someone tries to talk to you. It sounds more to me like you simply don't HAVE any proof. Every time people ask you if you do have any, you just make up some excuse as to why you won't share it.
Guys, stop it with the name calling. Bubba, you definitely are the one acting like a child here. Do you have anything to add to this discussion besides insults? I don't think you would enjoy being called an old fart.
there you go putting your self over again. get over your self. i bet you not as smart as you think you are. ("you spend too much time justifying yourself to your inferiors." )please just get over your self cuz you are not all that . the proof is in the pen all you have to do is just show up. now how hard is that. as smart as you think you are you should all ready know that. dont you what to know the facts? or do you so inferior to belive everthing you see and read on this box?
Bubba: while I agree that Mav and Magion are being too arrogant, you are not blameless. Not a single one of your posts on here has been productive at all. Let them disagree with you. You cannot insult someone and then be upset when they are bothered by it. I could easily start tossing around some names on here, too. I could call you an old fart. Would that make you feel any better? It wouldn't do anyone any good. Some people may not be able to visit pens. I would not travel very far and put my life in the hands of some stranger who calls me names and insults me. Has anyone ever told you about internet safety? Magion asked you to give her proof. So have ceann, misanthropee and mav. Is it truly that difficult to just take a video of dogs running? I would be interested in seeing it. I haven't formed an opinion on penning because I want to listen to both sides. What I see on here is this; neither side is trying to listen to the other. You have to be willing to listen to someone if you want them to listen to you.
Judging by your use of chatspeak, you're definitely not an adult.
call me what ever you what i dont care. all i have done is pointed out what ceeann says and what she has done. same with the kids.they are the one calling names and they are the one that keep trying to put them selfs over. if the name of kid is a insulted then i am sorry that they got hurt by some words. man how are they going to get buy in the real world? the fact are in the pen all you have to do is show up. now how hard is that?
When you call people kids, you are calling them names. They have done some name calling, I don't doubt it. I will not defend their actions, or their insults. But do not think you are innocent in this matter. A few of them have said that they are willing to listen to your side if you respect them and give them something to prove your case. I also refer back to things that have already been said; people cannot simply drop their entire lives to travel to some unknown territory with complete strangers. For all they know, you could be a murderer, or a rapist. CeAnn has several animals she looks after. If you've seen her websites, she has well over a dozen coyotes and foxes in her care. I'm sure if she didn't have to watch them, she would go. And Magion is, from what I can tell, a minor, unless she's turned 18 and we don't know about it. I would invite you to visit the HSUS, and I'm certain you would decline the offer. I worry more for your sake than I do for theirs. They can get by just fine in the real world. But if all you can do is come to this site and throw insults at people all day, then I'm more concerned about you than I am about them. You, Matt and Jerry appear to be much more sensitive about this issue than the majority of those who disagree with you. I understand wanting to defend a lifestyle or a sport, but you simply cannot put all the blame on someone for doing/saying something and then turn around and do the exact same thing yourself. The word hypocrisy has been used a lot on this site, and with good reason.
Speaking as someone who could one day be a parent, I would not ever want my child to go to some place I don't know very well with people I've never met before, who have harassed my son or daughter online. I wouldn't care if it was right next door. I don't know any of you, and I would not drop everything to visit you, and I would never allow a child of mine to do such a thing.
ok maybe this will help. google fox pen. please read both sides and see if you can find a fox pen close to you. you dont have to show up with me or anyone that fox hunts. try to go to a benafit hunt so you can see what good these folks do. you can not however go in to the pen intill the hunt is over. there you go the facts are in the pens all you have to do is show up.
My senator returned my call stating visits had been made to several fox pens that the alledged had not been observed.Adding that this bill would probabily not even make the floor adding it was ill advised.Their have been hundreds of complaints from churchs,fire departements,and oncologists(cancer doctors) that have taken offense against these slanderous attacks against these law abiding charitable citizens of NC.AS ONE LAWYER HAS PUT IT YOU CAN'T PUNISH ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE DUE TO ONE PERSON MISBEHAVING FROM NC WITH THE REMANDER AFAR OFF.YOU PROSECUTE THE OFFENDER NOT THE ENTIRE GROUP.THIS COULD BE CONSIDERED HUNTER HARRASSMENT AND DESCRIMINATORY!From what I understand our wildlife commission will be educating other states on how to bring their level of safety,monitoring, and care with fox refuges in other states.Bravo NCWRC.
Here we go with the this "proof" thing again. So far there is no "internet" proof directly related to NC fox pens on either side of the argument. Those being accused have taken an open door stance for providing their proof. Those who are accusing aren't willing to accept the most credible proof that could possibly be offered. Really there is nothing to discuss here. We also have to factor in the human opinion side of this discussion. It is not uncommon for someone to form an opinion and hold to their assumption and defend it purely based on pride. No amount of proof will change the minds of some people. They just won't concede that they were wrong. So on either side of the discussion, no amount of proof in the world is going to change some of these opinions. For those who claim to be open minded and willing to form their opinion based on real world facts. Well I guess you either need to travel to NC and see for yourself or bow out of the discussion because you have nothing to base an opinion on. Right now this is a argument about personal characteristics and next to nothing about NC fox pens.
Something else I want to address here and this isn’t argumentative but intended to be informative. There seems to be some confusion about the differences in the different hound sports. They keep getting lumped together. That’s like lumping all ball sports together. Plus there’s a confusion of the intended use of the pen. Pens can have different purposes and rules, just like different ball fields aren’t all the same. There’s the hound sport of exclusively running pens. This sport has been explained quite clearly by those on this here. They’ve explained this is a sport with no intended harm to the captive animals. There’s the sport of running hounds on the outside to kill. These are two completely different sports just like baseball and football. While there are some people that participate in both events, it’s not uncommon to find that many do not. Just like baseball players and football players, houndsmen tend to specialize. Some enjoy one or the other and some both, but that’s like enjoying football and baseball. They may both be ball sports, but the intended goal is different. The same goes for pens. They are being lumped together and that’s like assuming all ball fields, whether baseball or football, are used for football. Some pens may be used to train puppies for outside use. But that’s not all of them, or even a majority of them. Many have an intended purpose of being running pens only and are not used to train outside dogs. The circle of people that exclusively run pens will start puppies in the pens and these dogs will only be ran in the pens for their entire lives. I don’t know how else to explain that these are two completely different activities. You have to understand that what goes on outside of pens is not justification for what goes on inside of them. Especially the NC fox pens which have been running pens for generations. If and article is written about steroid use in baseball player in NC and some of those players openly invite the public to test them but they refuse. You can image how upset the baseball players would be because they feel they are being unfairly accused of something. Now if the accusers are using evidence of football players in other states as evidence to accuse these baseball players in NC, well you can image how much more upset they are going to be. It would be easy for accusers to simply tell the baseball players to get tested for steroids and post the “proof”. The problem is, there’s not a simple test to prove that fox and coyotes aren’t being killed in pens. A thousand pictures and videos could be posted of dogs and live foxes, but that doesn’t prove that they still weren’t killed. The only way to prove it is to be there at the end of the day and see that none were injured.
Reason, I have posted a non biased article wrote on here, on a fox pen. I have posted rules from our rule book on here, on the game and conditions of the foxes and coyotes. I have posted other information also. They do not respond to that. They do respond to attacks however. So attacks it is. I dont claim to be perfect and have thrown some jabs out there at them, but that is the only way I can even get a response from them, and it has not been all attacks at them, some information has been given. But anytime I put up information they want photos. If I put up photos they will be dismissed just as easliy. Ever heard of if you give a mouse a cookie? I have and I am not dumb enough to give them that glass of milk. However regardless of ceanna's ten coyotes she has, ceanna whom has dedicated her life to coyotes, you would think it would be her priority to go and visit a fox pen and see what actually goes on. You may say she is scared because of not knowing anyone, but a field trial has hundreds of people at it, they dont all know each other. Heck I dont know over half the people in my state that run in fox pens. It is imposible to know all of them. Would you turn down free lakers tickets because you didnt know anyone there? But until ceanna actually does go to one, she is basing her thoughts on nothing more than her opinion, just like the senators that have tried to start a bill based on opinion, they have never been to one either, and have no more facts or proof than the couple of vidoes of hounds hunting on the outside, not in an actual fox pen. They are only basing their opinion on what a few have told them. Dont you find that scary? I do if that is how our legislators goes about making laws, based on their opinion, and not facts. Brian, god bless the ones that are actually trying to educate themselves. I would hope they would listen to the best group of biologist in the country over the Human society. I am sorry reason but I cannot respect you or your comments due to the fact that you dont exisit, due to the lack of a real name. Mav I have seen pictures that were actually posted on the internet of three hounds and about four coyotes all eating some dog food that was scatter out for them, all standing side by side eating the same food, made me fell real bad about a fox pen (sorry for the sarcasm). I have seen a video of hounds running in a pen and five coyotes sleeping next to their feeders while the hounds are in the pen running. I have seen on numerous occasions with my own eyes coyotes walk right by the holding pens where hounds are kept and stand at the gate of the holding pens taunting the dogs in it. But I will not put them on here or send them to you, for you to move on and ask for some more proof. Obviously your opinion would not and does not matter in the State or North Carolina because you are not a resident of North Carolina, and dont have any plans to visit North Carolina. So I will not waiste my effort on you, or your 18 or 17 year old counter part. I cant just "ask jeeves" if fox pens are unethical or not because jeeves has very little information on fox pens. But what I can do is answer any questioins about a fox pen, and the things that I have seen in a fox pen. I will answer them honestly and respectively. For I am a eye witness to the insides of a fox pen and I will be glad to testify to any of you :)
Brian. How can you compare running foxes and coyotes to "ball sports?" I don't see football players or basketball players being illegally smuggled across state lines to replace players who have been killed. The complete lack of empathy, compassion and understanding of what the coyotes and foxes go through so you guys can have your little thrill completly boggles my mind. Not one of you stated any compassion at all for the coyotes having their tails cut off. That attitude alone, tipped me over the edge as to whether or not NC pens were different. Not everyone in NC agrees with what you do to these animals. For you guys who talk about the great history of the running pens. They weren't even in existence in NC until the 1980's. You can find thet information on the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission web site.
Ceann, it's very clean that your personal feeling for your pets will always skew your judgment. This is typical in the pet world also. Pet owners will humanize their pets and project human emotions onto their animals. Even amongst companion dog people this is a hot topic. Remember these people aren't hunting with their dogs just keeping them as companions. There's a movement being mounted arguing whether or not it humane or not to treat animals as "fur babies" and not allow them to be the animals that they are. A dog is an animal with natural instincts and repressing their instincts and forcing them to comply to a humans political correct ideas of how dogs should act can be an inhumane act in itself. I wonder if this isn’t happening right here but with coyotes instead of dogs. Earlier you commented on the importance of providing captive coyotes with a resemblance of a natural life in order to better their quality of life. Now I ask you for “proof”. Show us what you are doing to your domesticated and captive coyotes to ensure they are living a life in which they want to live and not one in which a human believes they should. What does all of this have to do with this discussion? I’m trying to find out what level of emotional attachment you have for coyotes and at what point to you put them on a higher pedestal than say pheasants, cows, deer, and mice for instance. Now I will be the first to agree that a person does not have to have an emotional attachment to a certain animal in order to show compassion and empathy for them. These are human emotions that can be projected to any medium the human mind deems worthy. I can assure you that I hold a large amount of compassion for all animals and the way they are treated is very serious to me. I don’t harm animals just for the fun of it. In fact others on here have stated the same thing. They have stated time and time again that they do not want to harm the fox either. My comparison was simply pointing out the difference between two activities that you are still unwilling to accept as different. You see I keep hunting dogs as companion dogs. I don’t hunt them 24/7 despite the fact that they would like to. Do you know what they do for fun when they aren’t hunting? They hunt each other, by trailing and chasing each other for hours. It’s what they love to do. But they don’t kill each other… Why do you suppose that is? It’s because of two things, the first being the fact that they were raised and live together and secondly they were taught not to hurt each other. The puppies used in these pens are practically raised with these foxes and the same thing happens. You seem to think that the simple act of trailing a fox is a mortal sin. The fox are brilliant little animals and have figured out that they aren’t going to be harmed. Don’t you not think that if they were truly terrified they would simply hide? I too have seen coyotes walk right past a den or safe haven when the dogs are trailing them in a pen. If they were actually scared for their lives, wouldn’t they too hide? The thing is they are very intelligent animals. They know darn well that they can hide, they choose not to. Explain to me why an intelligent animal who critics say is terrified for it’s life chooses to run around a pen instead of ducking into the numerous safe havens? The argument that these animal are being tortured and the people that allow it have no compassion doesn’t hold water. If you are allowed to keep captive coyotes and not be demonized for it, why can’t others do the same? They are demonized because they allow dogs to follow the animals around at the choice of the animal in exchange for a care free captive life. What are you exchanging in your coyotes lives? Why is their life so much better? What choices are they given? Next though- Again you are lumping a bunch of activates together to justify your emotional attachment to your coyotes. Using the illegal trapping and trading of animals as justificat
ceann one time, one story and those guys will pay for what they did and should pay for what they did. everyone on here has said that. get over it. they will pay for it. cut off tails lets see i have been in lots of fox pen all over the southeast and have never seen a yot with a cut off tail.where do you get this stuff. hard to show compassion for something you have never seen. as far as who agree or disagree looks like most agree with running in pens.
Ceanna, you are right I did not make much of a comment on someone cutting tails off of a coyote. BECAUSE I dont know anything about. I have never even heard of it until you said something about it. Believe it or not I dont try and voice my opinion on something I dont know anything about, unlike what you have done on numerous occasions. That being said I believe the guy that was charged with animal cruelty, should have been charged, and should be convicted if found guilty.
I wished they would ban taking any coyotes with guns period.Almost all of NC has either sex deer season every day for like 3 months with a 5 deer limit.This needs to be cut out so the food would be more available in the wild for coyotes.I know an old trapper who is real bad off in a nursing home that stated the insurance companies wanted the deer controlled and had sought coyotes from him.It has gotten to the point deer have gotten really thinned out from all the doe days ,The coyotes look starved I bring any road killed deer to put in the wild so they will have food.I do not run my hounds when the females have been bred or on pups.I think this should be law.I also feel that a fox refuge or any field trial area should not be ran 2 days in a row and limited to 3 days per week.I often will break dogs off after a 4 hour run if they haven't escaped.In the wild there are no Escape Havens like in the pen.I would like to see houndsman fined if they deliberately let their dogs catch any fox or coyote.This poes a real houndsman who likes the sound of the dogs voices.I want sell most deer hunters any dogs as they use them to run the coyotes and shoot them this BS needs to stop.Really and truely it's a shame these animals sometimes fair better in a pen whose manager loves his animals and jumps through every hoop to save them.I know a lot of the fox houndsman are tired of the bloody massacare caused by yote killers with guns that is now allowed.The deer hunters out number us 500-1.We can't compete.
Fox Houndsman, I don't know who you are, but at least we now have a voice of reason. You seem to know how everything is connected. I read your comment about four times. I have turned it into a word doc and will keep it on my computer. Is that allright with you? Some of your points are very valid.
ceAnn
Ceann, I must be missing it. Can you link me to the section on your website that details your facility? I’m curious to know the details on how you confine them, feed them, suppress their prey drive, stimulate their minds, etc. I’m also curious if you get flack from PETA and similar organization for keeping wild animals? I’ve read accounts of PETA people letting animals out of zoo’s and such. Have you ever had people attempt this at you facility?
Brian. Did you read the story about the attack on Amber. Because of that attack, I now have security cameras and lights around my facility. I also, now have a S&W .38. One of the prerequisets (sp) of any intern who comes here to study coyotes is that they must be able to shoot a gun. The intern who is living here now, is a sharpshooter from the Air Force. I don't fool around with the safety of my animals! I use the same techniques that Wolf Park uses to prepare any puppies that I may give a home to. I spent two years at WP working with the wolves, before I became interested in coyotes.
That’s why I asked. As upset as you are with us, I bet there are people just as upset with you. I’ve been reading how radical some of the animal rights people are becoming, that’s why I asked. Do you have people contacting you and lobbying against you? Also I’d still like to know about your facility such as acres, fencing material, safety for the animals from each other, safty for the public, etc.
I see that the name calling and belittling of each other continues. Hardly a solution is offered, name calling and cursing by both young and old. Those not in favor of fox pens continue to call it "blood-sport" and worse. The reality is that the videos made, pictures etc, were done to enhance the point of view of those against "penning" as some call it. We all should be mature enough to know that there are two-sides to each story, and somewhere in the middle is the truth. Those that are against offer the above mentioned as proof. It is in fact not proof, but done in such a way as to promote ones point of view. I mentioned on here before the video of the pen in Georgia was done by a woman involved in a nasty divorce settlement. she was proven in "court" to be lying. The other video was made outside in the wild where people do hunt to "kill" the coyotes!
This discussion is supposed to be about the "penning" or banning the "penning" of foxes & yotes in North Carolina. Unfortunately, for whatever reason an ill informed Senator has introduced a bill to elimnate the pens. The reason PETA & HSUS accusations are made is that this Senator has had "FINANCIAL" support from such. And is doing their bidding. These organizations are against animal ownership, harvesting wildlife and even against using animals as a sourcs of food. A bit radical to say the least!
As for the enclosures; admittedly on occaision an animal is caught; as also happens in natural outside surroundings! But it is not the desire of the pen owner,nor the hound owner to have that happen. These hounds are scent animals; which means they pursue the game by scent. On occaision, they will get close enough to pursue by "sight". At that point in time the "persued" game goes to cover; either in a man-made escape haven or natural escape haven. The chase is ended and the hound then uses its' nose to scent out another to chase. A study was done in Virginia by the Dept of Game & Fisheries for six months on foxes with telemetry collars to monitor their movements. During the study, not one animal monitored (and there were more than 25 being studied) was caught. The average length of the chase was approximately 15 minutes, and the fox went to "cover" in a man-made or natural escape haven. This does not sound like a "blood-sport"!! as stated earlier the foxes or coyotes are kept in a holding facility until they have been given rabies shots, ivermectin, and provided food to insure their health. After that they are released into the enclosure, and usually, not always given a few days to become familiar with the new surroundings. Most of the enclosures only have hounds released 3-4 times a week. Most running is done at night, and some field trials are held at night as well. Other trials are held during daylight hours. The trial is 4-5 hours in length; then the hounds are recovered & removed from the enclosure. That which has been described is what happens in most enclosures, and in no way resembles "bllod-sport"! I know of several enclosures in which the foxes have bred and raised litters over the last 5-6 years. A couple have foxes that will eat from from ones, and twenty minutes later stand in the road taunting a hound to chase it. not what I would describe as "blood-sport"!
I am sure that those opposed, will choose not to believe it, but it is what happens in most cases. yes there are exceptions; as in everything. there are good people involved & also a few bad apples. They should be prosecuted when breaking laws; as should anyone else breaking a law.
The economic impact provided to local communities and the state exceed millions of dollars annually. Tax revenue, and also "good will" economic help is provided!
I would think this issue should be dismissed as an ill advised venture!
Dream on. There will be more raids! This will be stopped! This dirty, secret is out and will not be ignored by society. The running pens are just a way to circumvent the dog fighting laws that most states have in place. If even one coyote has it's tail cut off, if one coyote is killed by a pack of hounds, I will be there to fight for that coyote. If anyone wants to help, please contact banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com
I swear there you go with that physcotic babble again ceanna. Why cant you except what the man says and respond to it. Instead of using words such as "raids, Dirty, secret" to make it sound like some sort of dog fighting ring. Its not even close to that and you know it so you throw out words to try and win over people on your side. Just stop it, either respond in a professional manner or shut your mouth. thank you.
Confirmed! Ceann you have no intention of ever being anything but completely bias for your pets. I've seen nothing you've written that has proven otherwise. You are disguising a self fulfilling prophecy as an attempt to help coyotes. While you may even believe yourself that your efforts are truly about the animals, I suspect you are attempting to fill an emotional void that you've filled by using wild animals as pets. If you believe that it's okay to keeping wild animals as pets, then you are no more innocent than the pen owners. Despite your allegations, I certainly wonder if the animals in the pens aren't afforded a better life than you provide for your captive animals. The fact that you refuse, despite being asked multiple times, to reveal how you justify keeping wild animals in a facility that you also won't provide details on can only lead to the conclusion that you have something to hide. I've followed your relies on this and other blogs. I notice that you pick and choose who you answer and respond to depending on the content that’s being discussed not the attitude and motivation of the poster. When topics that may work against you are brought up, you avoid them, but jump in the second you find something in your favor. Again, all I can do is guess that your facility is inadequate for the large number of wild animals that you are trying to keep. If it is not, I have no problem being proven wrong and would certainly like to know about it. There’s the possibility that pen owners may learn something from your facility and find way to better their facilities. While that’s not your ultimate goal, I would think that any effort to improve the life of the animals would be in your best interest. But again, I just don’t see that being portrayed. I only see an individual with an agenda to stop something doesn’t even exist. Despite multiple attempts to prove you wrong, you will not accept anything that does not selfishly benefit your physiological need to make yourself feel good about yourself by helping an animal that shouldn’t be a pet in the first place. You’re answer to everything is the same despite being asked different question. I think you think that if you just keep saying something you and others will believe it. So go ahead and keep calling it a dog fighting and a blood sport. The problem is false accusations are simply lies. If you can live with yourself knowing that lying is okay as long as it serves your personal issues, then you will ultimately have to answer for what you’ve done. I’m a film believe in “what goes around comes around”. I choose to live and honest life, I don’t lie or lie about what I do. I will pay for what I’ve done with a clear conscious. If you can live with a guilty conscious and sleep at night, then so be it. I’m not saying that others on here aren’t lying, I saying that you are either lying or lying to yourself. You can get as mad at me as you want for calling you a liar. The fact of the matter is you haven’t taken any action to prove otherwise. Others have been called liars for not offering up proof and the same goes for you. Prove that you have nothing to hide and prove that your attempts aren’t personal and I’ll be the first to swallow my pride and admit that I was wrong about you.
Ceann I do not hunt , but I am a farmer.I was about to lose my farm as my livestock loses were heavy.I had the coyotes safely removed but by law could have shot them every day year round .I saw your post banlivebaittraining.com or save the coyotes.com whatever.I seen the post on here,and I know several fox pen operators in my area.Your remark only hurts your cause as it is not true.You are from Indiana and reporters from here in our state have visited these facilities and one actually wrote an entire page how NO HARM WAS DONE & THE CHARITABLE EVENTS HELD by Dan Bonner.Since you have save the coyotes where is savethekidwithcancer.com,save thefarmers.com,putoutthehousefire.com,savebankruptcy.com,OR savetheyouth.com.I respect those that love animals but how in the world can you put a nuisance predator ABOVE A KID WITH CANCER!By thw way prosecute the LAW BREAKER not an innocent group of people and not the kid with cancer"that's from my neighbor who lost his 8 year old son last year to cancer.You have really angered good law abiding NC citizens,the farming communties, etc.
This really will be my last post here this time, as the verbal abuse and harassment has gone on for too long. I don't agree with Mav that Matt, bubba and Jerry are inferior to me. There are MANY things I consider you to be, many. And none of them are very nice. But inferior? No. Hypocritical, immature, condescending, vulgar, feebleminded, etc. Yes. Because it is your choice to be so. YOU choose to degrade yourself and drag others down with you. I don't consider myself naturally better than you. Morally, perhaps. But again, that is because of different choices we make. Not because we are, by nature, better or worse than each other. I've asked Mav to stop posting on here, and he admits he's taking this whole thing too serious. CeAnn, I just wouldn't bother trying to educate these people. They're only going to believe what they WANT to believe. They're blinded to reality, and their intolerance and hatred will ultimately destroy them. They're not worth the trouble. They have it in their minds that no matter what, they're better than you, me, Mav, Misanthrope...or anyone who isn't just like them in every way. Matt Lee is the very last person who should ever lecture people about responding in a professional manner, since not a single post from him could ever be considered productive or, for that matter, civil. No matter how hard you try to reason with these people, they are going to ignore reason and continue to live in their little bubble. Brian Cain tries to act mature, but he also keeps bringing up arguments that have nothing to do with penning, such as animal rights and pets. You are wasting your time with them. And after I decided to leave this poll, I felt better. I only checked back today because of Mav. Again, these people are not worth the trouble. And to David the Farmer....I would gladly save the coyote over the kid. Then I'd make the kid eat you! D< Please don't bring up ridiculous scenarios just to demonize those who disagree with you. That's an incredibly weak argument, and I feel that stupid arguments deserve stupid responses. And to everyone who is about to whine and cry and throw a hissy fit because I had the gall, once again, to disagree with them: grow up. I would have been willing to listen to you. I even tried to apologize for my behavior and meet you halfway. Instead, you continued to harass and belittle me. You continued to act selfish and immature. If you had actually shown some maturity, and had presented facts when asked and hadn't resorted to insults and name-calling, I would have listened. And I'm sure CeAnn would have listened, too. You need to get out into the real world and learn how to communicate with people. How you've managed to survive this long is simply beyond me. Someday, you'll piss off the wrong person, if you keep acting like this. And I don't imagine the results will be particularly nice and peaceful, either.
Don't get me on farmers and how they think it is ok to give us breast cancer and some of the other cancers out there, by spreading and spraying our foods with hebicides and pesticides. I just went through breast cancer and learned about how we need to wash our vegetable in soapy water and peel our apples with the peel at least a 1/4 in thick to get rid of the stuff that is sprayed on the apples, because the peels are so porous. I don't know much about cancer in children, but as soon as I was diagnosed, I made it my business to find out about breast cancer. Now, the farmer who just bought the land adjacent to mine wants to cut down the trees in the fence line. When he does that, if I can't stop him, there won't be any leaves to filter out the poisons that he sprays on his land. I won't have any protection at all from his irresponsible behavior.
welp one more post on cussing and how to argue properly, and one on breast cancer. I dont know how they manage to talk about these two topics and call it an argument over fox pens????
ceann WHAT there you go babbing again. grow your on food if you think that farmers cuz cancer. what does farmers have to do with fox pens.
Bubba. Didn't you read Dave the Farmers comment. He thinks I should care about whether or not the farming community is angry with me. I don't and was telling him why. This is my last email. I won't even receive the comments anymore. Bye
i have been reading all these comments it would be good to be the last comment because that is ridicolous everything u say u are saving hurt animals but the sport is not hurting them
I want the last comment! LOL. THIS IS THE ONLY FORM OF HUNTING IN NORTH CAROLINA WHERE NO ONE WANTS TO KILL ANYTHING.THINK ABOUT!
there you go again ceann. you take one part of a statment and make more about it than it is. the part you talk about is the last thing he said. did you not read the rest of it? he said it cool that you care about yots but what about kid,farmers,homeowners,ect.but you dont do you.
Fox pens and feild trails are the of thousands of people lives if you take that away you take their life and their heart. I have been doin it it ever scince I could hold a leash. You may think that im crazy but its TRUE!!!!
Fox pens and feild trails are the meaning of thousands of people lives if you take that away you take their life and their heart. I have been doin it it ever scince I could hold a leash. You may think that im crazy but its TRUE!!!!
Thanks kid for that it really means something for a kid to say what he feels
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